The Other Japanese Fighters

[GTX]

Or even Fw-190D-9s or even Me-109Gs in some Ki-61 markings such as these:



Regards,

Greg

[jcf]

Well, I've been thinking recentley about something a guy said to me at a model show recentley.  I was admiring his line up of Sopwith & WWI aircaft & got talking to him.  I know very little about aircraft built before 1935 so I was keen to learn more.  He was a really nice guy & was more than happy to fill me in.

He told me Herbet Smith, designer at Sopwith, helped to form Hawker Aircraft after Sopwith went bust after WWI.  Then in the twenties, he went to Japan & worked with Mitsubishi to help them develop modern fighters.  What if he'd stayed with Hawker & there was no Sydney Camm?  Would Hawkers aircraft have more closely resembled the Mitsubishi fighters?  Good excuse to put some British engines on & markings Japanese aircraft!

The Sopwith Co. was liquidated in September of 1920.

The Hawker Co. was formally announced on November 15th, 1920.

Herbert Smith went to work for Mitsubishi in February of 1921.
His most important designs for them were the Type 10 carrier fighter, Type 10 carrier reconnaissance aircraft (a scaled up two-seat Type 10 fighter), Type 10 carrier torpedo aircraft (single seat triplane), the Type 13 carrier attack aircraft (B1M1 to 3) and the 3MR3 (one of three design projects that led to the Type 89 carrier attack aircraft/B2M1 and 2. The Blackburn designed 3MR4 was the winning design). The Type 10 aircraft all date from 1921, the Type 13 and 3MR3 from 1924. The 10 and 13 refer to  the 10th and 13th years of Taisho, the name of the era ruled by Hirohito's father, Yoshihito.

Smith returned to England in 1924, Camm had joined Hawker in 1923.

Quoting Sopwith himself:"... We worked as a very close team with Freddie Sigrist, Bill Eyre, Harry Hawker and a fellow called Bennett... Herbert Smith was an important contributor to Sopwith aircraft design. He gradually worked up from the drawing office. I wouldn't like to say that he designed the Camel or the Pup. I give a lot of that to Freddie Sigrist and Hawker. Smith really put their ideas together on a piece of paper. Sigrist was an engineer in the schooner I owned with Bill Eyre. Hawker came a little later... he was a very competent designer. He didn't work in a drawing office but he brought all of his ideas in his head... That's why I hesitate to give too much credit to Herbert Smith in those days because an awful lot of it was Hawker himself. Smith edited the ideas, put them on paper. Sigrist was all practical. No theory. I don't think he ever went to school... "

Jon

[jcf]

Or even Fw-190D-9s or even Me-109Gs in some Ki-61 markings such as these:



Regards,

Greg

The Ki 61 was designed by Takeo Doi and Shin Owada, Doi had worked with Vogt and his influence is clear. I rather doubt that the Japanese ever would have produced anything that looked like the work of Messerschmidt or Tank, or would have wanted either companies product as the Ki 61 was a better design than the 109 and far more aesthetically pleasing than the fugly Dora.

If it hadn't been for that damned engine.

Jon  

[jcf]

A couple of quickies are the turbo-supercharged variants of the J2M (J2M4) and the Ki 46 (KI 46-IV).
A 262 could be faked as a Nakajima Ki 201 "Karyu", even thought the Nakajima would actually have been a bit larger and the detail differences are numerous..



Jon

[gooberliberation]

I do wonder what sort of designs would've popped up if Japanese industry, technology, and IJN/IJA doctrine allowed the widespread use of liquid-cooled inline engines.

The shinden would probably come out a bit sleeker with a vee instead of a radial, but I admit it'd lose quite a bit of character since its engine choice makes it more unique.

[PanzerWulff]

I did this Shiden a while back myself





"Panzer"

[BadersBusCompany]

What if he'd stayed with Hawker & there was no Sydney Camm?  Would Hawkers aircraft have more closely resembled the Mitsubishi fighters?  Good excuse to put some British engines on & markings Japanese aircraft!

I still think the identifiable aspects of interwar Hawker a/c would stand out..... No prizes but what two a/c are here?

Personally I think it looks a dog, thoughts?

[Mossie]

Well, the parents aren't the best lookers in town themselves so their offspring is never going to get in at Stringfellows.  I'm sure she has a very nice personality!  How about trying a radial, say a Hercules?  Might go better with the airframe.  The other one to do of course would be the Zero, that might look a little better....

EDIT, How about an A5M too with a RR Kestrel or Bristol Mercury or some-such?

[jcf]

What if he'd stayed with Hawker & there was no Sydney Camm?  Would Hawkers aircraft have more closely resembled the Mitsubishi fighters?  Good excuse to put some British engines on & markings Japanese aircraft!

I still think the identifiable aspects of interwar Hawker a/c would stand out..... No prizes but what two a/c are here?

Personally I think it looks a dog, thoughts?

Seeing as Smith had nothing to do with any of the Mitsubishi designs of the 30s-40s, and nothing to do with the inter-war Hawker designs... which are down to Sigrist/Camm, a Smith designed aircraft looking like an ugly combo of a Raiden and Hurricane is extremely doubtful.

Smith was best known for his work on biplanes and triplanes.

Jon

[BadersBusCompany]

Or even Fw-190D-9s or even Me-109Gs in some Ki-61 markings such as these:

[frank2056]

The Ki-201 was similar to the Me-262, but if you put the two next to each other the differences are obvious.

Here's my not so great RS Models Ki-201

[GTX]

Nice one BBC!

Regards,

Greg

[Jschmus]

I picked up an ICM Ki-27 last weekend, and I thought with underwing cannons, it might make an Eastern counterpart to the Ju-87 tankbuster.

[Arc3371]

Might as well post these I made earlier.

[jcf]

Inline engines in Japan, some ramblings on an alternate history.

1) The Japanese war in China does not cool relations between Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany, thus technology sharing and licensing plans go forward more quickly and on a broader basis.

2) Daimler-Benz and Junkers receive credits and monies from both governments to set up engine manufacturing factories with various zaibatsu, including Nakajima and Mitsubish. Japan thus gets modern production facilities... the bulk of Japanese engine manufacture during WWII was in comparatively small facilities and by cottage industry sub-contractors. Along with inline engine production this allows great improvements in the quality and production rates of domestic radial designs.

3) The most important part of the agreement states that until the Japanese are capable of producing certain critical components domestically, components that are difficult to manufacture or qualify for reasons of metallurgy/complexity, said components will be supplied by the German companies.
Crankshafts, camshafts, supercharger components and fuel injection systems are all on the list. Delays in getting the factories operating leads to a lag between shipped components and production thus the Japanese end up with a stockpile of components, something that comes back to haunt the Germans in later years.

4) The influx of technology, combined with close examination of purchased foreign inline engines (Hispano-Suiza, R-R Buzzard, V-1710 etc) allows Mitsubishi and Kawasaki to develop their in-house upright V-12 designs into engines roughly comparable in size and performance to the Merlin and Allison.

5) A relatively steady supply of reliable liquid cooled engines leads to a greater usage in design and production, particularly by the Imperial Army.

As to real designs, the Mitsubishi A5M3a was equipped with an Hispano-Suiza 12Xcrs, the Ki 28 (designed by Vogt and Takeo Doi) with a Kawasaki Ha-9-II-Ko. The He 100 and He 112 were considered for license production, as was the He 118. The He 118 production did not proceed, rather Aichi proposed a new aircraft using the 118 as the starting point, that design became the D3A (so yes, Daryl, you could put a V-12 on a Val :salute: ).



A5M3a


Ki 28

Jon