Cross Pollinated Machines

[GTX]

QUOTE (SinUnNombre @ Jul 21 2006, 02:26 PM)
How bout a Commonwealth Boomerang with an R-2800 to replace the R-1830?

From what's been published, this was the initial genesis of the CA-15. At one time, there was a resin kit of the radial-engined variant of the design available.

True - this was the plan up until about mid1944 when the USA advised that the planned R-2800 engine could no longer be guaranteed.  Alternatives including the Bristol Centaurus radial (same engine as Sea Fury basically) before the Griffon was settled on and used in the eventual aircraft.  Here are some pics to show what it may have looked like:

First a side drawing of the R-2800 version alongside the eventual Griffon version:



Next a model created back in the '40s:



Finally, a couple of photos of the factory mock-up:




Regards,

Greg

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Hawker Typhoon with an R-2800

I would imagine the Typhoon better served with the R3350 from the B-29 or A-1 Skyraider as it was capable of providing a lot more power in a smaller size which would fit well on the Typoon.  

[Martin H]

First off, what about a Westland Whirlwind fitted with handed Rolls-Royce Merlins to replace the unreliable Peregrines?

sounds a lot like the proposed Whirlwind Mk II, Merlins and sorting out the fuel system, u couldnt use fuel from one side of the A/c on the engine on the other side, so looses one engine, u cant use the fuel to keep u going.

Its posible with drop tanks that the Whirlwing Mk II may well have given us a long range escort fighter with the range to reach Berlin long before any of the Amercan long range fighters appeared, but we needed Spitfires and Hurricanes rather desperately at the time so the Whirlwinds fate was sealed.

[kitnut617]

Just to add to the Typhoon/R-3350 line of thought, when Hawker tried to add the Centaurus to the Typhoon there were some problems, so they converted one of the Tornado fuselages, it having it's main spar some three inches lower than on the Typhoon to accommodate the Vulture engine.  I think I would use a Tempest though as it was designed to be fast.

Another thought would be a model of a R-2800 powered Beaufighter (one prototype was built)

Robert

[elmayerle]

Just to add to the Typhoon/R-3350 line of thought, when Hawker tried to add the Centaurus to the Typhoon there were some problems, so they converted one of the Tornado fuselages, it having it's main spar some three inches lower than on the Typhoon to accommodate the Vulture engine.  I think I would use a Tempest though as it was designed to be fast.

Converted Tornado fuselage with a Tempest wing?

[jcf]

Jon,


If all things work out, one will show up at the McMinneville show in September under the wings of the Spruce Goose in bright royal blue with some white racing stripes on the tail empennage representing some as-of-yet unnamed Russian Team.    Likely the Hasegawa kit will be utilized just to showcase the new kit.

That along with a re-engined Yak-3 from Eduard's Weekend series will complete the Russian Team.   The Yak is planned to be bright yellow.   Cheesy as it is, one is the Blue Belle and the other the Yellow Yak.

Back to the P-39, someone some time back had a link to one of the early Bell P-39 prototypes which was turboed and intercooled.    It looked quite sleek.   


Daryl J.

A turbo-supercharged V-1710 would do just fine, no need to switch to a Merlin or Griffon, not even considering that the Griffon would probably be too heavy for the P-39 airframe and was never designed to be turbo-supercharged...the mechanical supercharger was pretty much integral to the design. The Griffon outweighed the Allison of the sort used in the P-39 by at least 300 and, depending on the precise details of the particular Allison, possibly as much as 400 pounds. Add in the space and weight for an intercooler and the little snake would appear pregnant. Timing is also an issue as by the time the Griffon was available in sufficient numbers the P-39 was very much an also ran and spending the money on an old, and not too popular, design would be a hard sell.
Now as a post-war Hot-Rod....

Here's something for you guys to cogitate on: the prototype XP-39 was powered by a turbo-supercharged Allison V-1710-17 producing 1,150 hp, the production P-39C was powered by a mechanically supercharged V-1710-35 producing 1,150 hp. The only major difference was in high-altitude performance...and actually at mid and lower altitudes the -35 equipped P-39C was the better performer. Bell experimented with a more powerful experimental Allison on the XP-39E...it had a slightly increased top speed but in all other parameters underperformed the P-39D.
Bell also tested some other supercharger concepts for the P-39...they were mounted externally under the belly in a nacelle that looked like a jet engine.

As to a Griffon engined S.6 or S.6B...the Griffon, properly Griffon II, was the descendant of the "R" engine that powered the Supermarine S.6 aircraft. The S.5 was powered by a Napier Lion.

Note to Evan: a Griffon powered P-38 would likely have dispensed with the turbo-chargers...redesigning the Griffon for turbo-supercharging would have been more expensive and time consuming than redesigning the airframe.

[Tophe]

Late war RAF P-38 with Griffons and contra props

Take it one step farther and do the cleanups Kelly Johnson wanted to do but never could 'cause they'd disrupt production lines:
- Replace the radiators and oil coolers with leading edge units along the lines of what the Mosquito had; depending on how badly it'd mess up the plumbing, look at doing something similar with the intercoolers for the turbochargers (why not?  The Griffon would adapt better than the Merline would)
- Longer center nacelle, along the lines of the "Lightning Swordfish" with bubble canopy (either sngel-seat or dual-seat cockpit).

Have you seen I have drawn it at http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index...80&#entry155024 ? ^_^  

[Daryl J.]

What if more aircraft from days past were developed by two or more nations not near to each other and the airframes shared?

For example, take an American machine and Aglicise it and put in the services of Great Britain.   Or take a British jet and the US tweaks it and uses it as we did the T-45 Goshawk, except perhaps utilizing more profound changes.  

The Hawker Phantom GR.2b cooperatively developed with McDD sporting Hawker signature tail and wing planforms (rather than the F4-J(UK)

The prototype Avro Skyray  featuring a revised wing leading edge or the like to enhance stability and placing a Brit engine in it (rather than the Douglas Skyray)

And the Supermarine Spirit P.1955 featuring one upgraded engine, some revised wings and stabs (rather than the XF-88 Voodoo).

What if Great Britain did not let other countries develop their version of the Nene?

Etc.......


Daryl J.

[GTX]

Well for that matter, what if Germany and Japan shared more aircraft during the war, just as the allies did?  More German fighters in hinomarus, and maybe some long range Japanese Flying Boats in Swastikas/Crosses?

Regards,

Greg

[Daryl J.]

So the Ar-96 on floats gets a Zero engine, The Val gets used in Spain?  

Regards,
Daryl J.

[Joe C-P]

Modifications of pre-WW2 US or UK carrier aircraft as Allied Free * Naval Force, where * is one of the European countries occupied by the Nazis.

Perhaps other countries had experimented with "flat-topped" merchantmen like Argus, so they had small groups of carrier-qualified pilots escape with their birds. They could have filled out the decks of the USN's proposed liner conversions, or mid-war to equip the CVEs. Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, France, Greece.

JoeP

[GTX]

A perfect example for this thread would have to be the Fw-247T from John Baxter's  Tragerflotten books - an Aichi B7A1 with a BMW 802 engine:



Regards,

Greg

[Dork the kit slayer]

A bit off topic...but.
What is it about Japanese WW2 aircraft,no matter what you do to them or what scheme you apply...they still look....well..er....Japanese.  

Ive been playing around with a Fujimi Tenzan no matter what I did to it, it still looks like a Japanese torpedo plane. Even with a Seafury prop and a Wyvern contra. Is it those small tails??? The shallow  glass houses?  


OK you can all get back to the real thread now.  

[JC Carbonel]

Seems to me like we have quite a few real life examples : P-51B Mustang (US airframe + Merlin engine)? Morko-Morane (French airframe + russian engine)? So-6000 Triton  (french aiframe +Jumo 004)? Ki-61 Tony (Japanese airframe + German engine anf guns)  etc...

JCC

[kitbasher]

It's not just the T-45 that uses a British (OK half-Brit) engine - wasn't the F-80's J-whatever based on the Nene or something?
As for Japanese aircrfat always looking Japanese, I think you say that about any WW2 aircraft.  Can you imagine really making any Luftwaffe type look American, anything Britsh look Russian, or anything Italian look Japanese?  Really?  OK maybe a Dinah could look vaguely German with VDL props and in Kreigsmarine markings (that's what I'm hoping for next year, unless the Armstrong Whitworth flying wing night fighter takes over).
But back to cross-pollination.  I've always liked the idea of Saab developing the tandem T-bird Hunter project (don't recall the 'P' number) - add a radar and the reheated Avon developed for the Lansen - and build that instead of the two-seat Lansen.  Or Blackburn developing a Dart-engined (contra-prop, of course) Goodyear F2G Corsair.  Or BAE developing a Tornado with engines?
 
And by the way, does anyone agree that the best whiff ever MUST be the spaceship Titanic in this year's Xmas Dr Who?