Battleships

[elmayerle]

A few thoughts, I've seen drawings of a studied battlecarrier conversion of the Richelieu and I don't see why that couldn't be used as a starting point for a 1950's or later conversion of the Richilieu and Jean Bart.  Similarly, the HMS Lion class that HMS Vanguard was derived from had a battlecarrier derivative studied and it could also sever as a starting point for a more modern verstion.  I see some interesting whif possibilities here.

[Joe C-P]

Trumpeter has done models of Richelieu and Jean Bart, so one could try modeling their hybrid alternates. There were two more of their class, Clemenceau and a half-sister, Gascogne (her turrets would have been one forward, one aft). Actually, the last would be the best option, with only one main turret forward allowing for a longer flight deck.

For the KGVs, the secondaries could have been replaced with the twin 6", twin 3", and/or twin 4.5". The 6" and 3" were said to be somewhat unreliable. Perhaps, though, with more such mounts in service they might have been made more reliable. Into the 1960s Sea Cats would have been added.
The after deck isn't as generous as the Iowas' but should still have fit a helo pad.

[dy031101]

Inspired by Admiral Furashita's Graf Fitti, I'm trying to make a mental note out of combining Gollevainen's Graf Spee and RP1's Tiger flightdeck conversion.

Obviously I'm nowhere near finished.  The forward mast, the work boats and boat cranes (I'm probably going to take all the aforementioned items again from RP1's Tiger but haven't figured out how to mate them to the Graf Spee), as well as the secondary weapons are not touched YET, but I want to see if such a flight deck could indeed have gone well with the Pocket Battleship, or would this be an idea not even Admiral Furashita would approve...... 

[r16]

my take on a air capable ship

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[dy031101]

A couple of years ago I started hearing a Japanese animated series called "Konpeki no Kantai" (Deep Blue Fleet) and its spinoff, "Kyokuzitsu no Kantai" (Fleet of Rising Sun).

Story-wise...... simply put, "Japanese are smarter, and the rest of the world, arrogant and stupid, is out to get Japan".  Isoroku Yamamoto got killed in WWII and reincarnated in the afterlife, in an era shortly before the Pearl Harbor raid.  The author bumped the industrial strength and technology prowess to a level surpassing those of the US (and the US in afterlife already have F8F and P-63 rolling out of factories immediately after the Pearl Harbor raid), and with all that, the reincarnated Yamamoto humiliated the US into conceding defeat and went on to fight the almighty Third Reich...... 

But despite a story that's whack beyond all recognition, there have been some interesting imaginations in alternate war machine designs- here are some line-drawings from the novel version (which the anime is developed from) of "Kyokuzitsu no Kantai".

The first one...... those who read the Alt. Military News thread should be familiar.  Those "circle" things are VL missile silos (which I deleted in the Alt. Military News post).

It is probably based on Kongo class battlecruisers but wider to accommodate triple main rifle turrets.

[dy031101]

Here's another.  This one is supposed to be an aviation battleship.  The circle things right next to single-barrel cannon turrets are VL missiles.

Main guns are 41cm/L45.

The single turrets (on these battleships) are 15cm/L65 (single because in the story it's a rapid-fire AA gun that can reach stratosphere  )......

[dy031101]

And finally, the main characters' flagship in the spinoff......

Ironic, because in the main series, the reincarnated Isoroku Yamamoto terminated the constructions of Yamato class battleships to build submarine aircraft carriers...... only to have this one available for the spinoff.

The main guns are 51cm/L45 in calibre......

[Joe C-P]

I have heard about those comics. There is an undertone in Japanese society that they were somehow wronged by losing WW2, and a fantasy that they could have, and should have, won the war. I won't dwell on the political implications of this attitude in this forum.

The ship designs are, as usual for fanboy-driven comics, overgunned and impractical. The first one is especially bad; carriers sail into the wind to improve aircraft takeoffs, and their islands are off to the side to reduce turbulence for landing aircraft. Having two angled decks means that only one can be used at a time, and that's a really non-aerodynamic superstructure.
Big gun turrets make lots of turbulence, which is why battleship-carrier hybrids were never really practical. The Lexingtons came closest, with a heavy cruiser's armament, but getting into a gun fight would have wrecked their aviation capabilities.

But they are really fun to model! 

[dy031101]

The ship designs are, as usual for fanboy-driven comics, overgunned and impractical.

I thought that spaces must be allocated for bunkage and provisions...... and the author packed VL silos (I heard that those house bombardment rockets in the novels but multi-purpose missiles in the anime  ) into those spaces......

Even as a person who actually think the likes of Kiev class are cool, I agree with your assessment...... and that, as a side note, is why I have no problem basing "bad-guy" vessels on those designs in the Alt. Military News thread. 

(Even then there are certain things I will never tolerate...... like the VL silos- like I said, I believe they are occupying spaces for provisions- and the the 155mm turrets being rapid-fire AA guns......)

And both designs carry a bewildering variety of aircraft (a wholly different aircraft for every role- fighter, dive-bomber, ECM, ASW, AEW, and etc.- yet some are supposed to have overlapping capabilities)- which I think is kinda logistically unwise.


And as a continuation to the mental note I said I was thinking about, here is the item with a bit more time spent on......

[dy031101]

And here is that "Super Battleship" in the anime...... gone are the forward VL silos- in their place is another three-gun main rifle turret.

[Joe C-P]

And as a continuation to the mental note I said I was thinking about, here is the item with a bit more time spent on......

So you've taken a panzerschiff and done a Tiger-type upgrad to the after end, though with a ski-ramp for Harriers. Interesting. Is the after part asymetrical, in that the hangar is offset to starboard and the ski-jump to port?

[dy031101]

So you've taken a panzerschiff and done a Tiger-type upgrad to the after end, though with a ski-ramp for Harriers. Interesting. Is the after part asymetrical, in that the hangar is offset to starboard and the ski-jump to port?

According to RP1, who drew the shipbucket Tiger conversion, runway and ski-jump are sponsoned to port, hangar is below the flightdeck, the aft superstructure is quite narrow and offset to starboard.

The original Tiger conversion drawing, as well as RP1's knowledge on the conversion, can be found here.

So how does my mental note sound in principle?  What modifications would you suggest?  (Gotta get my mental notes right- once I get my life stablized, efforts admittedly still having quite a way to go, I might start making something out of 'em in 3D Studio Max.)

[Joe C-P]

According to RP1, who drew the shipbucket Tiger conversion, runway and ski-jump are sponsoned to port, hangar is below the flightdeck, the aft superstructure is quite narrow and offset to starboard.

So how does my mental note sound in principle?  What modifications would you suggest?  (Gotta get my mental notes right- once I get my life stablized, efforts admittedly still having quite a way to go, I might start making something out of 'em in 3D Studio Max.)

How much hull breadth do you have for the hangar, and for the skijump? You don't want your Harriers smacking their starboard wings on the superstructure, nor falling overboard to port, as they take off. And the hangar has to have room to fit all the Harriers, since the flight deck probably isn't big enough for more than one or two to park during air operations.

[dy031101]

How much hull breadth do you have for the hangar, and for the skijump?

It would appear to be the question I'll end up asking when I come around doing it in 3D......

[RP1]

Greetings, chaps.

The basis illustration showed that the aft part of the superstructure in way of the hangar was heavily sponsoned, so allowing a wider internal space.  There was plenty of space for the ski-jump, although it was angled to port more than is strictly normal. The deck park could accommodate a belly-whopper, or a harrier at a squeeze, but things would get a little toasty during landing operations. The original concept showed a couple of machines permanently parked on deck, but I'm not sure how well this would work in practice - that's two decks worth of shuffling to do. 3-D chess, anyone?

RP1