Ca-31 Whatifs

Archibald · December 29, 2007, 05:27:38 AM

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/inde...pic,2077.0.html

The title says all. Ca-31 was a delta wing supersonic trainer project drawn by Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation in the 60's.
It would have been powered by an Adour engine similar to the Jaguar, speed was to be mach 1.5 at height.

This aircraft has a lot of whatif potential.

As Thorvic suggested, a naval variant for the RAN.
Maybe a complement to the Skyhawk.

RAAF trainer to fit between MB-326 and Mirage IIIO.

Single-seat variant to compete with Jaguar and F-5 on export markets.

Maybe CAC could have sold the aircraft to Singapore or other south-east asian nations ?
First combats aircrafts in Singapore A.F inventory were second-hand Hunters, then F-5 Tigers.
The Ca-31 could have replaced both!

We can also imagine a situation similar to WWII, I mean that Australia come under attack (this time from Indonesia) and has to built its own aircrafts in a hurry.
Then the CA-31 know a fate similar to the Boomerang in WWII... CAC did it again!

Btw since years now I'm tempted to butcher a Hawk and graft Mirage III wings on it to build a Ca-31...

Another interesting whatif is the Ca-31 replacing the Jaguar/ Alphajet and Hawk in French, British and Indian service. The Jaguar fail in the late 60's, then the two partners try to replace it as both trainer and attack aircraft.
The Ca-31 fit the bill, and achieve sucess against the F-5...

GTX · December 29, 2007, 12:32:38 PM

Well there is a kit available in 1/72 if you can find it: http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/port.../raaf/ca-31.htm

QuoteRAAF trainer to fit between MB-326 and Mirage IIIO.

The RAAF jet trainer requirement was eventually fulfilled in 1967 by Macchi Trainers licence built by CAC, so I can't see both being used.

Does anyone have a good 3-view drawing?

Regards,

Greg

MAD · December 29, 2007, 06:37:10 PM

I like the idea of a RAN carrier-based variant!
This could be developed in conjunction with India, as a Sea Hawk replacement.
A lot of these could fit on the deck and in the hanger of HMAS Melbourne!

M.A.D

dy031101 · December 29, 2007, 07:24:56 PM

Once again we might want to take the projected takeoff speed into account......?

Otherwise...... maybe take out the rear seat and use the space for, say, extra fuel and such......

MAD · December 29, 2007, 11:13:32 PM

Quote

Does anyone have a good 3-view drawing?

Regards,

Greg

I strongly second this request

M.A.D

Archibald · December 30, 2007, 02:21:09 AM

QuoteOnce again we might want to take the projected takeoff speed into account......?

Otherwise...... maybe take out the rear seat and use the space for, say, extra fuel and such......

QuoteThe estimated approach speed is 120kt,

At least this seem good for a carrier, 120 kt is around 210 kph.

Thorvic send me some 3-view of the machine via MSN weeks ago. I'll try to find them and post it here

Archibald · December 30, 2007, 02:35:43 AM

Et voila!!!

Archibald · December 30, 2007, 06:18:55 AM

I've tried to "clean" a side view of the Ca-31. If someone want to atempt a profile...

GTX · December 30, 2007, 10:19:14 AM

Archibald (and Thorvic too I guess),

Thankyou. What is the source please?

Regards,

Greg

GTX · December 30, 2007, 10:22:07 AM

Looking at the drawings and the dimensions, its almost an early HAL Tejas - check below for comparison:

# Length: 13.20 m (43 ft 4 in)
# Wingspan: 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)
# Height: 4.40 m (14 ft 9 in)

Regards,

Greg

dy031101 · December 30, 2007, 04:44:34 PM

At this point I'd like to ask one question...... is there an aerodynamic reason behind the shape of the nose on most of the subtypes illustrated......? You know...... it looks...... inverted.

kitnut617 · December 30, 2007, 05:09:05 PM

QuoteAt this point I'd like to ask one question...... is there an aerodynamic reason behind the shape of the nose on most of the subtypes illustrated......? You know...... it looks...... inverted.

Seems almost F-111 for some reason

dy031101 · December 30, 2007, 07:46:08 PM

QuoteSeems almost F-111 for some reason

It's overdoing it a bit compared to the F-111 IMHO......

although the mockup pictures seem okay......

In any case, if a carrier-borne version was possible and put in development, the nose would probably be redesigned to allow for a better view upon landing......

QuoteAt least this seem good for a carrier, 120 kt is around 210 kph.

It wasn't too much faster than the approach speed of A-4, I'll give it that.

If it can have the takeoff quality of A-4 as well...... I couldn't help to imagine a supersonic aircraft in a small carrier as an air defense interceptor...... two or four (maybe, with double racks like Sea Harriers) Sidewinder AAMs under the wings? Probably single-seater with a bit more fuel......

I do have a hard time imagining the primary equipment fit until the advent of Grifo radar or...... for some wild possibility in the case of MAD's Indian version...... maybe a version of Russian Kopyo radar (an internally-mounted version of Kopyo-25)?

Archibald · December 31, 2007, 12:23:41 AM

Quote
QuoteSeems almost F-111 for some reason
It's overdoing it a bit compared to the F-111 IMHO...... although the mockup pictures seem okay......

In any case, if a carrier-borne version was possible and put in development, the nose would probably be redesigned to allow for a better view upon landing......

QuoteAt least this seem good for a carrier, 120 kt is around 210 kph.
It wasn't too much faster than the approach speed of A-4, I'll give it that.

If it can have the takeoff quality of A-4 as well...... I couldn't help to imagine a supersonic aircraft in a small carrier as an air defense interceptor...... two or four (maybe, with double racks like Sea Harriers) Sidewinder AAMs under the wings? Probably single-seater with a bit more fuel......

I do have a hard time imagining the primary equipment fit until the advent of Grifo radar or...... for some wild possibility in the case of MAD's Indian version...... maybe a version of Russian Kopyo radar (an internally-mounted version of Kopyo-25)?

F-5 Tiger is my friend. Why not APQ-159 ?

Add a load of Sidewinder, as the SHAR mk.1.

About the nose, yes I've changed it for a scaled-down Viggen nose cone. Looks better like this...

In fact this aircraft would be rather close from the "interceptor Skyhawk" as used from CVLs in Vietnam (120 kt land speed, mass and dimensions, AIM-9 armement) PLUS supersonic speed.

Maybe the APQ-159 could be replaced by a SHAR radar (Blue Fox, later the excellent Blue Vixen) in the late 70's...

I'm quite sure the Ca-31 would be able to carry a pair or AMRAAM or Sparrow.
In fact it could be interesting to compare it with the F-5, Hawk, Harrier, and Skyhawk to see its size and weight.

dy031101 · December 31, 2007, 09:36:34 PM

QuoteMaybe the APQ-159 could be replaced by a SHAR radar (Blue Fox, later the excellent Blue Vixen) in the late 70's...

The plane looks so tiny that I feel that Blue Fox might be too large......

QuoteAdd a load of Sidewinder, as the SHAR mk.1.

QuoteI'm quite sure the Ca-31 would be able to carry a pair or AMRAAM or Sparrow.

Perhaps the CA-31 could use a hardpoint-equipped underwing droptank design like those used by Mirage III...... some wired for bombs, some with rocket launcher in their noses, and others wired for AAMs......