Gloster Javelin

[Archibald]

Well I've just bought an 1/72 scale Gloster Javelin for cheap. I'm currently thinking of what doing with this kit.
Can't help thinking about Convair Deltas.
YF-102 top speed = mach 0.99
F-102A top speed = Mach 1.3
F-102B top speed = mach 2.3

To me, the Javelin had aerodynamics deficiencies similar to the YF-102. The difference being they were never really cured, and the Javelin stayed barely supersonic in level flight.

I know the existence of the Thin Wing Javelin, but I'm not interested by it for various reasons.  It is way too different from the basic Javelin to atempt a build, and the P.356 which was started circa 1953 was still barely supersonic in level flight, thus it was killed later by F-155T. Even with massively powerful Olympus engines,  P.376 planed  top speed was only mach 1.82, far from the F-106 mach 2.3 (source : Tony Buttler).  

So my aim would be to stay close from the basic Javelin (keep the Saphire engines) but "clean" its aerodynamics to push its speed to mach 1.3, as Convair did with the F-102A.

Then this machine could be an interesting alternative to both the Lightning and
F-155T, and even survive to the Sandystorm of 1957.

So how improving the Javelin ?
- air intakes. Maybe something similar to the Mirage ?
- Improved Avons or Saphires
- smaller or more pointed nose

[B777LR]

How about a Mirage IV alternative?

Anyhow, how to improve the javelin:

Afterburners
Pointed nose
Thinner wing
Pointed nose from a Su-27
F-104 intakes (just much larger)
wingtip missiles
Full bubble canopy

[The Rat]

- air intakes. Maybe something similar to the Mirage ?
- Improved Avons or Saphires
- smaller or more pointed nose

Yep, I think the Mirage style intakes are the easiest (cuz that's the way I planned on modifying mine and I'm lazy   ), engines can be almost whatever you like since they're buried, and the more streamlined nose would look good.

[upnorth]

Remove the T-tail hoizontal stabilizers for a start.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that in hindsight they were seen as superfluous but that it was a bit of conservativeness in the minds of the powers that be that saw it retained in the design. I think they found in some wind tunnel tests that the Javelin probably would have performed just as well without the horizontal stabilizer.

You could save a bit  of weight not only removing that T-tail, but following it up by reducing the chord of the vertical stabilizer a bit. I know you don't want to thin the wings, but thinning the fin wouldn't be too difficult.

Also rework the intakes so they are semi circular and have a shock cone in them, like the Mirage or F-104. Those big circular inlets were fine for subsonic beasts like the Buccaneer, but a supersonic type needs something a bit more refined.

I wouldn't touch the radome for risk of actually losing the Javelin look, but you might consider lengthening the fuselage between the radome and the cockpit. Just cut the radome off where it joins the fuselage, stick in a couple of sheet styrene disks of about .040" thickness cut and sanded to shape and stick the radome back on. The slight increase in length will give it a sleeker look without compromising the contours of the radome.

[kitnut617]

The Javelin is one of those aircraft which reacts strongly to weight changes.  Removing the tailplane would mean you would have to shorten the nose, not lengthen it.  In the F.2/6 version which had a heavier Amercan radar, the nose was shortened by quite a bit and gave it a very bullish look to it, and when the T.3 was built without the radar the forward fuselage was streched out by as much as half the cockpit length.

I think the Heller T.3 (also Airfix) is still available and this already has a sleeker nose to it so that would be a good start for your project.  If it is the be an operational one I think you need to extend the rear fuselage, to offset the weight change, which could easily be done on either kits. By stretching the rear fuselage you could 'area rule' it at the same time which would help with the speed increase without changing the engines.  Our resident engineers could probably make a more educated guess/comment in that respect.

If you can find a Hawk Javelin Mk.1 kit, this also has a smaller diameter nose which is muck sleeker the the service Javelins, it was designed around a smaller radar dish.  I've since found out that the Hawk kit is one of the prototypes, not a MK.1 at all, and it doesn't have the 'pen nib' fairing around the tailpipes.  Incidently when I matched the Hawk kit with an Airfix kit I found them to be a very close match and my plan was to kitbash the two, the Airfix kit having wheelbay details etc. whereas the Hawk kit is very basic and doesn't.

Robert

[Archibald]

Remove the T-tail hoizontal stabilizers for a start.

I seem to recall reading somewhere that in hindsight they were seen as superfluous but that it was a bit of conservativeness in the minds of the powers that be that saw it retained in the design. I think they found in some wind tunnel tests that the Javelin probably would have performed just as well without the horizontal stabilizer.

You could save a bit  of weight not only removing that T-tail, but following it up by reducing the chord of the vertical stabilizer a bit. I know you don't want to thin the wings, but thinning the fin wouldn't be too difficult.

Also rework the intakes so they are semi circular and have a shock cone in them, like the Mirage or F-104. Those big circular inlets were fine for subsonic beasts like the Buccaneer, but a supersonic type needs something a bit more refined.

I wouldn't touch the radome for risk of actually losing the Javelin look, but you might consider lengthening the fuselage between the radome and the cockpit. Just cut the radome off where it joins the fuselage, stick in a couple of sheet styrene disks of about .040" thickness cut and sanded to shape and stick the radome back on. The slight increase in length will give it a sleeker look without compromising the contours of the radome.

Thank you all for these precious advices!!    

Didn't thought about removing the tailplane, but it sounds an interesting idea.

It seems the tail just made the aircraft unsafe, I mean that, as the F-104 and
F-101, Javelin T-tail suffered from a blanking at high AOA, sending the aircraft into a spin.

I'll see what I can do with the nose in this case.

Was the Javelin wing really too thick ? Maybe I can thin it by using only one half of the kit wing, and fill it with putty...

Btw got two big tank halves, ideal for area rule...

So lets have a list

- Mirage intakes
- area-ruled fuselage
- smaller fin

And, maybe
- thinner wing
- removing the tailplane
- different nose

engines can be almost whatever you like since they're buried

You're perfectly right, got a pair of J79 exhausts left by a Vigilante.
At least the J-79 was rather close from the late Saphires in overall dimensions and power. Maybe a canadian connection after the Arrow fall ?

[GTX]

For a simple colour scheme/operator whiff, I've always liked the idea of a Chinese Nationalist Javelin - don't ask me why.  One day I'll come up with a suitable backstory.

Regards,

Greg

[Daryl J.]

Anyone see the British Secret Projects book with the evolved Javelins esp. the one with the thin wing and revised intakes supposedly killed off by the CF-
105 Arrow?

[jcf]

Bomber and recce versions.

jon

You cannot view this attachment.

[jcf]

Single seat long-range fighter (second drawing).

You cannot view this attachment.


Jon

[Archibald]

Anyone see the British Secret Projects book with the evolved Javelins esp. the one with the thin wing and revised intakes supposedly killed off by the CF-
105 Arrow?

The Gloster P.376 Thin Wing Javelin! Two big Olympus, mach 1.82.
Very impressive project.

In fact the TW Javelin evolved from P.356 (which was still barely supersonic) to P.376.
Sadly, the prototype Gloster started to build in 1954 was the P.356, not the P.376.
Thus when the RAF compared P.356 with CF-105 they found the Arrow was vastly superior in performances and the TW Javelin was cancelled.
In fact both the Arrow and TW Javelin were too late in timescale to be used as interim all weather interceptor before F-155T. But in the end all these projects were cancelled between 1956 and 1959    

[kitnut617]

The RAF *did* order the Arrow, but the Treasury didn't have the requisite foreign currency reserves to pay for it.  Had the RAF order been in place and currency exchanged, I doubt that it would have been axed.

Now this is interesting, I've not read that in my references.  In my book by the Arrowheads it says that Avro Canada tried to sell it to the RAF but was refused because it didn't suit their requirements. Where did you find that snippet of info, Lee?  I'm interested to know for a possible what-if project I'm planning and this would fall right nicely into the backstory.

[Archibald]

Btw I think the TW Javelin was also hampered by Red Dean -what an heavy and bulky AAM!!!-
More deeply, it influenced the TW Javelin design in the sense that the AAM was more important than the aircraft carrying it, thus the latter didn't need a high top speed.

That's why I want to explore another way of improving the Javelin, drop the Red Dean and change the Gloster into a supersonic machine!

[kitnut617]

Bob, I think it was TsrJoe who told me.  I'm sure it was mentioned in one of the files he read on one of his trips to the Public records office.

Thanks Lee.

[elmayerle]

The RAF *did* order the Arrow, but the Treasury didn't have the requisite foreign currency reserves to pay for it.  Had the RAF order been in place and currency exchanged, I doubt that it would have been axed.

Now this is interesting, I've not read that in my references.  In my book by the Arrowheads it says that Avro Canada tried to sell it to the RAF but was refused because it didn't suit their requirements. Where did you find that snippet of info, Lee?  I'm interested to know for a possible what-if project I'm planning and this would fall right nicely into the backstory.

Randall Whitcomb's Avro Aircraft and Cold War Aviation has material from Jim Floyd confirming RAF interest in the Arrow, but as an Aall-weather interceptor and as a stand-off carrier for an advanced, and smaller, Blue Steel development.  I believe Randall included a concept pic of the later version.  I believe I've posted it here before.  I can supply it to any interested parties; drop me a PM.