Israeli Aircraft Industries Lavi Whiffs

[GTX]

Hi folks,

What if the IAI Lavi actually made it into service - what possible whiffs are possible?

SAAF machines?
Turkish?
Taiwanese?
Chinese?
Naval variant?



Regards,

Greg

[Mossie]

USAF or USN aggressor?
Captured examples, just about any bordering or other Middle East country?
Palestinian Air Force?  

[Archangel]

I would say definatly SAAF or anyone of the F-5 customers that are not in the Middle East.

[r16]

ı am of the humble opinion that it wouldn't sell , the calculations had big mistakes in them and it fell to US Congress to save the reputation of the companies involved . The mistakes could even originate from Grumman .

[GTX]

the calculations had big mistakes in them

What calculation mistakes are you referring to?

Regards,

Greg

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

Israel sold Python and Derby missiles and Kfir airplanes to several countries. We could easily imagine some of them buying Lavi too...

-Colombia
-Sri Lanka
-Equator
-Argentina
-Brazil
-Chile
Maybe Singapore, India or China?


But also, as it was already proposed, USAF and USN as an Agressor! just imagine the F-24C Lavi !

[r16]

being dependant on web cafes for surfing I write some of posts at home so please bear with me if they don't really seem relevant to what should really be written .So my Saturday work goes on like this :

being a half witted amateur in aircraft designing and having achieved nothing more than a few pencil drawings in notebooks , I know it involves lots compromises , no one can win all and lose nothing .

israeli aviation had one more botched up project similarly praised like the Lavi. They didn't do that good with the Kfir ; supposed to be superlative , I don't think it does anything that a Mirage 50 can't do ...the production Kfirs were a disappointment  to their pilots who of course were informed of the test flights . That a testbed is lighter than a service aircraft I agree , that Kfir was let down by J-79 , I don't . As far as I get it  Technolog , the GE powered Mirage test bed was the highest performing Israeli aircraft until F-15s came along , It is just an excuse for the fact that in a quest to get higher lift , Israelis put a dogtooth instead of the Mirage's sawtooth and mismanaged it . Before the computers were able to do it properly by testing every single option , finding the right balance in aircraft design was nothing short of a miracle , though people with enough experience could achieve rather more. The story of the J-79 installation being draggier and using more fuel than calculated is simply used as a smokescreen to cover the actual truth of inexperience . Afterall the British did something similar with the Spey , though they get  more in bad press.


it is still more than my country has done . Kfir will beat any cropduster ...

lavi was supposed to outdo the F-16 . I have read every single issue of Air International I have at least 5 times , and Roy Braybrook was of the opinion that it wouldn't do.

to make it do , and save a basic tenet in diplomacy Americans were brought in . And then it appeared that in order to save its aircraft companies and their exports , America was forcing the Israelis to quit  .

ı don't have the slightest doubt if it had worked as advertised , Lavi would be in series . As it is , Israel got extra F-16s , China was delayed in fielding the J-10 , Americans were happy that they had given more arms to Israel without destabilizing the area ,since Arabs would be very unhappy if the pocket superfighter had become a reality.

though since I don't believe the Middle Kingdom is in any mood to take over the world , its effect on Chinese rearmament might actually be nil . When the Chinese need something real bad, they get it from Russians.


so which mistakes you say , how am I supposed to know ? Though  if Washington apart from some of the lobbies I mean , had really wanted the Lavi in service , Grumman would have made a decent F-20 out of it . Israel did really win out in the Lavi case.

[Thorvic]

http://www.anigrand.com/AA2066_Lavi.htm

Anigrand do a kit if anyones interested

G

[elmayerle]

Mmm, my understanding is that at least one US company considered IAI to be optomistic in their estimates on the Lavi.  The original design concept used a F404 and Northrop looked it over and came back with their experienced-based evaluation; they then proposed a couple hybrids with the F-5G/F-20 (same aircraft, different designations) as a cost saving measure.  Neither proposal was accepted.

[dy031101]

Taiwanese?

The engine is derived from one that was practically embargoed to ROC until France sold Mirage-2000.

But I did hear rumours that ROC did consider financing Lavi development before the Indigenous Defense Fighter saga...... maybe a J79-powered derivative?

[B777LR]

I would love to see a lavi in chinese markings! Just to fool the JMNs and all who beleive the J-10 is a lavi knock off ^_^

[anthonyp]

http://www.anigrand.com/AA2066_Lavi.htm

Anigrand do a kit if anyones interested

G

That is indeed a really nice kit!  I'm leaning towards doing mine as a USN Aggressor (based on someone's profile here, I forget who).

[dragon]

For some odd reason, it wouldn't look out of place in NASA chase plane markings.  Even Edwards AFB markings would look normal on it...Anyone make a decent kit in 1/72?

[Shasper]

Anigrand is the only game in town mate. Remember, the 2-seater was suppose to replace the twin-stick Scooters in the advanced training role, and the aircraft was more or less in the same size/weight category as the A-4, so some A-4 & F-5 operators are not out of the question (Singapore comes to mind).

Shas

[ysi_maniac]

being dependant on web cafes for surfing I write some of posts at home so please bear with me if they don't really seem relevant to what should really be written .So my Saturday work goes on like this :

being a half witted amateur in aircraft designing and having achieved nothing more than a few pencil drawings in notebooks , I know it involves lots compromises , no one can win all and lose nothing .

israeli aviation had one more botched up project similarly praised like the Lavi. They didn't do that good with the Kfir ; supposed to be superlative , I don't think it does anything that a Mirage 50 can't do ...the production Kfirs were a disappointment  to their pilots who of course were informed of the test flights . That a testbed is lighter than a service aircraft I agree , that Kfir was let down by J-79 , I don't . As far as I get it  Technolog , the GE powered Mirage test bed was the highest performing Israeli aircraft until F-15s came along , It is just an excuse for the fact that in a quest to get higher lift , Israelis put a dogtooth instead of the Mirage's sawtooth and mismanaged it . Before the computers were able to do it properly by testing every single option , finding the right balance in aircraft design was nothing short of a miracle , though people with enough experience could achieve rather more. The story of the J-79 installation being draggier and using more fuel than calculated is simply used as a smokescreen to cover the actual truth of inexperience . Afterall the British did something similar with the Spey , though they get  more in bad press.


it is still more than my country has done . Kfir will beat any cropduster ...

lavi was supposed to outdo the F-16 . I have read every single issue of Air International I have at least 5 times , and Roy Braybrook was of the opinion that it wouldn't do.

to make it do , and save a basic tenet in diplomacy Americans were brought in . And then it appeared that in order to save its aircraft companies and their exports , America was forcing the Israelis to quit  .

ı don't have the slightest doubt if it had worked as advertised , Lavi would be in series . As it is , Israel got extra F-16s , China was delayed in fielding the J-10 , Americans were happy that they had given more arms to Israel without destabilizing the area ,since Arabs would be very unhappy if the pocket superfighter had become a reality.

though since I don't believe the Middle Kingdom is in any mood to take over the world , its effect on Chinese rearmament might actually be nil . When the Chinese need something real bad, they get it from Russians.


so which mistakes you say , how am I supposed to know ? Though  if Washington apart from some of the lobbies I mean , had really wanted the Lavi in service , Grumman would have made a decent F-20 out of it . Israel did really win out in the Lavi case.

I find this post quite interesting. Where can I find more info about Kfir real performance?