Need a "Knock their socks-off F-104 Starfighter What-If" for the HS group build.

[retro_seventies]

Israeli would be a beauty.

All those tans and greens, some kill markings, couple of python or shafrir and a couple of drop tanks?  Fabulous.  They would have been "purchased" instead of the Mirage III.  An Israeli Mirage decal sheet should do the trick, and there's no reason why if those weapons are hard to get hold of in 1/32 that the usual 'winders and sparrows wouldn't be ok.

The real question though, is to model it as delivered?  or after the "Kfir" upgrades?  Larger wing?  Canards?  CFTs?

[jcf]

Seeing as the US never used the G model, simply putting the aircraft in USAF markings is a pretty big What-If?.

Howabout a ZELL version in ADC grey with Genies under the wings? More or less a manned BOMARC. 



ZELL F-104G walkaround:
http://www.b-domke.de/AviationImages/F104ZELL.html

Jon

[B777LR]

Ah, the zell F-104 at the luftwaffe museum at Berlin-Gatow! If you are going to berlin one day, i can really recommend this museum

[Gary]

You know how Hawk SAM missile batteries have three missiles. Well, build the same sort of thing except with three Starfighters. Hey, it used to be called the misslile with the man in it.

Or... A giant revolver handgun with the revolvey thingy (sorry, not too familiar with hand guns) hanging out and a 104 being loaded.

Or... in a bit of a morbid twisty sort of thing, convert one to a casket.

Or... an astronaut doing a space walk from the cockpit. Can you say, "Huston, we have a problem."

Or... Get a big scale 104 and hang baby 144th 104's off the missile racks.

Or... delta

Has anyone seem my pills?

[Martin H]

Or... in a bit of a morbid twisty sort of thing, convert one to a casket.

You have just given me an idea for some of the 104 spare parts i have lying around

[jcf]

Or... A giant revolver handgun with the revolvey thingy (sorry, not too familiar with hand guns) hanging out and a 104 being loaded.

Cylinder.

Jon

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

What about a modernized F-104? I'm not talking about heavy modifications, just light modernisations

Something with a new engin maybe (PW1120? F404? RB.199? ATAR?), or something like a dorsal spin and/or an integrated IRST in or under the nose, something like that.

With a good scheme form an unusual country, such little variations, it could be very good!

[Radish]

VTOL......

either the rotating triangular wing thingy (a stunner in 1/32nd) and relatively easy to scratchbuild, or the wingtip one with lots of little engines in pods.

If you want a straight paint job, why not Israeli....orange/black ID panels to stop confusion with the Jordanian ones.

Did you know that Bolivia tried to buy ex-Belgian F-104Gs?

RAF ant-flash white with a big nuke under the fuselage sounds great though

I also have some F-5 "Aggressor" decals ready for a series of USAF F-104A Aggressors

[Mossie]

Just imagine Wile E Coyote sat on top!!!!!! 



BEEP BEEP!!!! 

[Tuck]

Ok, guys.  I really appreciate all your input.  I have decided on the following:

Ryan F-104 VTOL in Swedish splinter camo.

Now, for the meat of the issue:

The Ryan VTOL concept just looks a bit undeveloped to me, so I want to make it as "What-If" viable as possible.  Eliminating the
"normal" wings does not make sense to me, as how do you get lift during the vertical to horizontal transition?  Does the triangle wing auto-gyro until forward thrust is sufficient?  What do ya'll think, leave the concept as it or make it a conventional F-104 with VTOL triangle wing on-top?

Also, it's going to be Sweedish, so it needs front cannards. 

Anything else I'm missing to make this a reality "What-If?"

Tuck   

[Mossie]

I think if you want to add canards, you could go the way  Retro mentioned & 'Kfir' it, add a delta & remove the T-tail.  Or how about a forward swept wing, that would be too cool!

[jcf]

Ok, guys.  I really appreciate all your input.  I have decided on the following:

Ryan F-104 VTOL in Swedish splinter camo.

Now, for the meat of the issue:

The Ryan VTOL concept just looks a bit undeveloped to me, so I want to make it as "What-If" viable as possible.  Eliminating the
"normal" wings does not make sense to me, as how do you get lift during the vertical to horizontal transition?  Does the triangle wing auto-gyro until forward thrust is sufficient?  What do ya'll think, leave the concept as it or make it a conventional F-104 with VTOL triangle wing on-top?

Also, it's going to be Sweedish, so it needs front cannards. 

Anything else I'm missing to make this a reality "What-If?"

Tuck   

Hi Tuck,


You would not want to leave the F-104 wing in place as it would interfere with the low-aspect ratio tri-rotor producing thrust-blanking. The more structural area under a rotor-disc, the lower the vertical lift efficiency of the rotor. This is one of the bugaboos of winged compound helicopters.

Back in the mid-90s I worked on S-61L/N airliner shortening conversions for the Canadian heli-logging industry, we would take the nose/cockpit off of the Sikorsky airliners and remove an approximately four-foot long section of fuselage. The helicopter would then be as long as the military models, the reduction of fuselage area under the rotors resulted in an increase of over 1,000lbs in lift capability.

jon

[Tuck]

Hi Tuck,


You would not want to leave the F-104 wing in place as it would interfere with the low-aspect ratio tri-rotor producing thrust-blanking. The more structural area under a rotor-disc, the lower the vertical lift efficiency of the rotor. This is one of the bugaboos of winged compound helicopters.

Back in the mid-90s I worked on S-61L/N airliner shortening conversions for the Canadian heli-logging industry, we would take the nose/cockpit off of the Sikorsky airliners and remove an approximately four-foot long section of fuselage. The helicopter would then be as long as the military models, the reduction of fuselage area under the rotors resulted in an increase of over 1,000lbs in lift capability.

jon
[/quote]

Jon,

What heppened to the VTOL patent link you posted before?  I have tried to find it on freepatentfind.org or something like that.  No luck.  Could you provide the link again?

Tuck

[jcf]

Hi Bryan,
the patent link was the wrong one, it was for the puffer-jet version.
Here it is again though:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=0qNPAAAAEBAJ&dq=3159360

I've misplaced the link/location for the other version.
Still looking/trying to remember. 

Jon

..on second thought the puffer version might be pretty cool.

[jcf]

Hooahh,
found the other patents:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=qj5pAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=3025022#PPP1,M1

http://www.google.com/patents?id=nJNcAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1962&dq=3146970

http://www.google.com/patents?id=_c5LAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA33&dq=3490720

Cheers, Jon