UH-1 'Huey' and AH-1 'Cobra' (Bell and Augusta built aircraft) all versions

[dy031101]

I thought the YEH-60B was fascinating enough...... turns out that there is a version of the UH-1H equipped for the Stand-Off-Target-Acquisition role.

I wonder if the radar could have been modified to function in an AEW capacity and be mounted on the Augusta/Bell 212 (which would also have been modified with the obligatory retractable skids)...... could have been an alternative for the AEW Sea King to some......

[GTX]

I don´t know why the cobra was not selled in lage quantities to NATO countries other than the US. The TOW cobra was far more capable than the utility helicopter conversions of the time, like the Bo-105 and the Lynx. And sure the germans, danish, dutch and french needed something to stop the hordes of russian tanks coming from the east.

The AH-1 might have been more capable in the attack role but it wasn't as useful all up - the Lynx etc could fire missiles plus also carry troops etc thus being more useful all round.

Regards,

Greg

[Weaver]

I don´t know why the cobra was not selled in lage quantities to NATO countries other than the US. The TOW cobra was far more capable than the utility helicopter conversions of the time, like the Bo-105 and the Lynx. And sure the germans, danish, dutch and french needed something to stop the hordes of russian tanks coming from the east.

The AH-1 might have been more capable in the attack role but it wasn't as useful all up - the Lynx etc could fire missiles plus also carry troops etc thus being more useful all round.

Regards,

Greg

Also, there's the issue of equal-cost quantities. If ALL you want to do is stop tanks then all you need are the ATGWs: paying for a cannon, rockets and a specialised airframe doesn't add anything you need.

Another thing: most of the utility helo conversions such as the Bo-105, Lynx, Gazelle etc.. had their TOW/HOT sights on the roof, which made it easier for them to hide in a tree line. The Cobra's nose-mounted sight precludes this.

[Shasper]

Which leads me to my next thought, What if the old Army Cobras were modified for the armed scout role instead of the OH-58s? Why not use an updated Sierra or Whiskey Cobra with a mast mounted sight as a Kiowa replacement in lieu of the now defunct ARH-70?

Imagine, turreted gun instead of the .50 cal gunpod, more flexible weapon options & a narrower front profile than the 206/407 based aircraft . . . slap a T700 or T701 in there for commonality with the H-60 & Longbows . . .


Shas  

[GTX]

Which leads me to my next thought, What if the old Army Cobras were modified for the armed scout role instead of the OH-58s? Why not use an updated Sierra or Whiskey Cobra with a mast mounted sight as a Kiowa replacement in lieu of the now defunct ARH-70?

Imagine, turreted gun instead of the .50 cal gunpod, more flexible weapon options & a narrower front profile than the 206/407 based aircraft . . . slap a T700 or T701 in there for commonality with the H-60 & Longbows . . .


Shas  

Kind of similar to the Australian choice of the Tiger ARH as a Armed Recon replacement for the Kiowa.

Regards,

Greg

[jcf]

I don´t know why the cobra was not selled in lage quantities to NATO countries other than the US. The TOW cobra was far more capable than the utility helicopter conversions of the time, like the Bo-105 and the Lynx. And sure the germans, danish, dutch and french needed something to stop the hordes of russian tanks coming from the east.

Because it wasn't designed as an anti-tank helicopter?
Fitting TOW capability to the basic Cobra was a matter of expedience,
a way to supplement the true anti-tank machines.
For the USMC, adding TOW capability was a matter of adding another arrow
to the quiver, the Marines always like to have options.

The Cobra was designed an infantry support system.

Jon

[Mossie]

I've been thinking about what I might build for the 'Beating the Air into Submission' GB & I grabbed a number of kits from the stash, including two short body Huey variants I've got.  I was think along the lines of a Westland built UH-1 as an alternative to the Scout/Wasp, then I saw Weaves post about a Scoutised Huey.

My idea is for something much less 'in depth' than Weavers.  My premise is that on acquiring Saro in 1958, Westland were either less than pleased with the P.513 (to become the Scout/Wasp), or there was some enthusiasm to carry on their relationship with American firms.  There would be two variants, based around a Gnome engine (very new at the time), with the pre-production examples maybe having Nimbuses.  The version built for the AAC would be pretty much a Huey, but with the Gnome powerplant & a four blade rotor.  The FAA would receive a fully navalised variant with folding tail & rotors & wheeled undercarriage.

I could use the Italeri AB 204 as a basis as it already has the Gnome engine.  As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been a fully navalised version of the Huey so that would probably be the most interesting.  I've got a spare rotor with a Lynx kit that would probably work, although scratching the undercarriage might be interesting!

[Weaver]

Which leads me to my next thought, What if the old Army Cobras were modified for the armed scout role instead of the OH-58s? Why not use an updated Sierra or Whiskey Cobra with a mast mounted sight as a Kiowa replacement in lieu of the now defunct ARH-70?

Imagine, turreted gun instead of the .50 cal gunpod, more flexible weapon options & a narrower front profile than the 206/407 based aircraft . . . slap a T700 or T701 in there for commonality with the H-60 & Longbows . . .


Shas  

The problem with that is that, as far as I know, it's impossible to fit an MMS to a Hueycobra. MMS needs a static tube up the middle of the rotor head, and the Bell "teetering" rotor system precludes this. You'd have to fit a new rotor head, gearbox etc... (don't know if the 214 system would work) which would probably be prohibitively expensive.

Mind you, in Whiff World, you could change the procurement equation: maybe the Apache got cancelled or ran into technical troubles? Perhaps a super-anti-tank Cobra might have the pilot and gunner stations reversed so that the latter could have a roof-mounted sight above his head? Longer wings for more TOWs? 30mm Chain gun instead of the M-197 (better for anti-APC work)?

[Shasper]

Well I hadn't considered that, however the AH-1 rotor head doesnt look like the one used on the Huey . . .

The train of thought running thru my head right now is for a OH-58D replacement in place of the ARH-70, with the airframe being based on either a stock Whiskey airframe with the 412 main rotor, but a Zulu Cobra derivative wouldnt be out of the question . . . Maybe a roof mounted sight & a Longbow radar instead of a MMS? Either way a Cobra derived armed scout heli would be an overall better weapons platform than the current Kiowas (which are limited to 50cal MG pods, twin shot Hellfire, Stingers & 7 round Hydra rockets).

[gunfighter]

If the cobra was not intended as an anti-tank system, then why all the later dedicated AT helicopters have followed its general design?: apache, comanche, tiger, havoc, hokum, mangusta, Z-10, even the hind. All of them are tandem-seaters, sleek, feature small wings to carry the weapons, chin mounted guns...even until recently most of them had the sighting devices on the nose. I agree utility helicopters are more cost-effective, but the cobra is far more deadly in the antitank role than a gazelle or an A109.

[jcf]

If the cobra was not intended as an anti-tank system, then why all the later dedicated AT helicopters have followed its general design?

Maybe because it's the best setup as far as the crew's vision is concerned?
Which was the priority in the Cobra's design as a ground-support aircraft.

Dedicated anti-tank machines use a similar layout for a similar reason.

[dy031101]

If the cobra was not intended as an anti-tank system, then why all the later dedicated AT helicopters have followed its general design?: apache, comanche, tiger, havoc, hokum, mangusta, Z-10, even the hind. All of them are tandem-seaters, sleek, feature small wings to carry the weapons, chin mounted guns...even until recently most of them had the sighting devices on the nose. I agree utility helicopters are more cost-effective, but the cobra is far more deadly in the antitank role than a gazelle or an A109.

To be totally honest, I think the breed of helicopters that began with the Cobra are more like anti-tank-capable helicopter gunships (except for the Comanche, a scout).  In any case, the end of the Cold War and the subsequent change of battlefield environment made them more desirable.  Whereas the likes of Gazelle and A-109 are better suited for using covers and ambush tactics over the tree line, Western armies after the Cold War found themselves going into someone else's home turf and becoming the ones getting ambushed.  The configuration of the dedicated gunships does allow for a smaller frontal area when totally exposed.

The US and the Soviets have been out looking for trouble and going on the offensive long before their respective allies did- that's why they came up with the AH-1 and the Mi-24......

[Weaver]

If the cobra was not intended as an anti-tank system, then why all the later dedicated AT helicopters have followed its general design?: apache, comanche, tiger, havoc, hokum, mangusta, Z-10, even the hind. All of them are tandem-seaters, sleek, feature small wings to carry the weapons, chin mounted guns...even until recently most of them had the sighting devices on the nose. I agree utility helicopters are more cost-effective, but the cobra is far more deadly in the antitank role than a gazelle or an A109.

Why is a Cobra with 8 x TOW more deadly in the anti-tank role than, say, a Lynx with 8 x TOW, who's sight is mounted higher and can therefore hide better? Granted the Cobras' got rockets and a cannon, but those arn't anti-tank weapons.....

The slim, tandem-seat layout is better for any armed helo, whatever it's warload and mission, because it gives the smallest, lightest fuselage, thereby maximising the payload available for weapons. Interestingly, the only purpose-built "European-style" anti-tank helo is the Mangusta, and that was originally designed without a gun turret. In essence, a Mangusta is a Lynx optimised for the anti-tank role.

[Mossie]

I think my post has got buried within another discussion, anyone got any comments on a navalised Huey, Westland or otherwise?

[kitnut617]

Interestingly, the only purpose-built "European-style" anti-tank helo is the Mangusta, and that was originally designed without a gun turret. In essence, a Mangusta is a Lynx optimised for the anti-tank role.

Like this maybe ----- my CH-151 with Lynx rotor blades