UH-1 'Huey' and AH-1 'Cobra' (Bell and Augusta built aircraft) all versions

[Jschmus]

I had a question about Huey maneuverability, and I couldn't see opening another thread.  I watched (or started to, anyway) the new film of The A-Team.  The opening sequence culminates in an aerial chase, with the heroes fleeing in a Huey air ambulance from the bad guys, who have a heavily-armed Eurocopter Astar.  Early in the chase, the pilot, Murdock, rolls the helicopter in order to dodge fire from the other helo.  Is this even possible with a Huey? 

[Maverick]

From everything I've read, very few helicopters have the rotor strength to be rolled.  The Westland Lynx is one that can & I'm sure there are others, but I think it sounds like typical Hollywood BS if it's a Huey doing it.  That being said, that movie sounds like ALL Hollywood BS anyway.

Regards,

Mav

[rickshaw]

I had a question about Huey maneuverability, and I couldn't see opening another thread.  I watched (or started to, anyway) the new film of The A-Team.  The opening sequence culminates in an aerial chase, with the heroes fleeing in a Huey air ambulance from the bad guys, who have a heavily-armed Eurocopter Astar.  Early in the chase, the pilot, Murdock, rolls the helicopter in order to dodge fire from the other helo.  Is this even possible with a Huey? 

It is done in the movie and IIRC it doesn't look like CGI to me.  I've always understood that the UH-1 rotors weren't strong enough to allow a roll but perhaps later ones can manage it after having been strengthened?  I suspect its a lightly loaded machine though.  UH-1's I've been in have always seemed a little flimsy to me.   No doubt they are strong - after all experience from Vietnam would suggest it but they just don't seem all that strongly built to me.

[Maverick]

The Lynx has a semi-rigid rotor mounting, the Huey doesn't which by all accounts allows the Lynx to perform the maneuver.  Unless the UH-1 had been specifically modified for the movie, I seriously don't believe it performed the maneuver.  As mentioned earlier, the chances of it being Hollywood BS is fairly high, given the nature of the movie.

Regards,

Mav

[rickshaw]

I've just done some googling.  Barrel rolls in UH-1s are discussed in several places and it seems that Cobras could and did perform the manoeuvre fairly often but it wasn't recommended in the heavier UH-1 but was possible if the pilot was skilled and had sufficient speed and a low weight loading (and a late model rotor head).   I'll have to watch the movie again this weekend and see what it shows.

[Maverick]

One wonders how much stress the rotor assembly has on it during the maneuver though?  If the maneuver was performed, could it be replicated again and again?  Or would the Jesus nut, rotor hub or other assembly merely give way resulting in a smoking hole? The Lynx could routinely accomplish the maneuver.  From what's out on the web, most pages quote highly skilled pilots and momentary maneuvers.  It would also depend on their definition of a barrel roll too.  Are they talking about an actual barrel roll about the fore-aft axis of the fuselage or some other maneuver?

Regards,

Mav

[rickshaw]

Oh, I agree, I wouldn't want to do it twice in the same UH-1 chopper, not without a major overhaul and inspection and replacement of the rotors and hub!  Its just that it could be done.  As I said, I'll watch the movie again over the weekend (I think my son has a copy, I'll have to check with him).

[famvburg]

As big as the Sikorsky CH-53 is (I don't know about the bigger E), it can be rolled & looped. I understand the S-67 Blackhawk was looped & rolled routinely.

[KiwiZac]

Quick query guys: as you may be aware, the RNZAF is retiring its fleet oh UH-1Hs this year to make way for NH-90s, but I'm working on a different timeline for the NZ defense force involving the Hueys maybe being retired by the mid-90s and wanted some help.

What colour scheme do you guys think would look good on and armed, New Zealand-based Bell 412? in R/L the Iroquois fleet - we have always called them as such - have worn SEA camo, allover dark green, currently allover dark grey, and one-offs such as UN white and all orange for Antarctic operations. Ideas?

Also armament, was thinking the rocket pods, mini gun one side, M60 the other? Or twin minis? Minis on the rocket pod struts?

[Yasotay]

Having flown both aircraft one did NOT roll them on a regualr basis.  It was not uncommon to do a half split s in the Cobra to begin a gun run from altitude but it was not an every day event.   The real trick with the tettering hinge rotor system on both aircraft was to maintain positive g loads.  Going negative was a one way ticket to becoming a lawn dart.  As mentioned above doing these sorts of things put incredible strain on both the rotorhead and the rotor mast.  To much maneuvering could cause the rotor mast to snap and again you would be on a very quick ride to a smoking hole in the ground.  Maintennace officers and commanders frowned on these maneuvers with equal disdain.

Hope this helps.

regards.

[Maverick]

Having flown both aircraft one did NOT roll them on a regualr basis.  It was not uncommon to do a half split s in the Cobra to begin a gun run from altitude but it was not an every day event.   The real trick with the tettering hinge rotor system on both aircraft was to maintain positive g loads.  Going negative was a one way ticket to becoming a lawn dart.  As mentioned above doing these sorts of things put incredible strain on both the rotorhead and the rotor mast.  To much maneuvering could cause the rotor mast to snap and again you would be on a very quick ride to a smoking hole in the ground.  Maintennace officers and commanders frowned on these maneuvers with equal disdain.

Hope this helps.

regards.

Well, that's pretty much it then.  As I had suggested, the A-Team is BS, surprise, surprise.  It seems they've got that from the old series down pat.

One wonders perhaps if people are confusing looping with rolling?  Loops are hard on helos, but doable in some instances.

Regards,

Mav

[rickshaw]

I was wondering where this discussion went!

I did rewatch the "A-Team".  Maverick, you're right.  It was a bit of typical Hollywood sleight-of-hand.  They show the chopper being chased in one scene.  It flicks to the interior of the Huey and they show the panic of the occupants as the chopper is rolled and then they flick back to more views of it being chased and then into the chasing chopper and the reaction of it's occupants to the supposed roll of the Huey.

I have to apologise.  I was under the impression that the movie did show a roll.  It doesn't.  Mea culpa!   

[Maverick]

No sweat on that Brian  ,

I'm sure there will be plenty of people out there who will swear that the helo rolled.  Unfortunately it ends up like John Wayne's unlimited ammo in his six-guns and every other 'whizz-bang' that Hollywood finds necessary to foist on the public.  People end up believing the hype ad infinitum.

It's a bit like the old 'shoot the gun out of his hand instead of shooting the bad guy'.  Anyone who has used a handgun in a real world environment realises that's just smoke & mirrors, but I've had enough people tell me that it should be able to be done because they've seen it done on the movies...

Regards,

Mav

[rickshaw]

No! No!  It can't be true!  You mean the Duke actually had to reload his six guns?  Oh, hell, all my childhood memories, destroyed in a single unthinking moment!  How could you?  

I expect next you'll tell me that Father Christmas and the Easter Bunny aren't real!

The problem is getting worse with CGI allowing directors to have audiences see previously impossible scenes.

However, I have to admit, having been watching "Generation Kill", I've been impressed with the use of CGI in that series.  Very realistic.   I think the Marines portrayed are lunatics and how they act over the top but I've been assured by others "in the know" that, that is in fact how they acted in real life but the portrayal of weapons' effects have been pretty spot on IMO.  Which would have been impossible and extremely dangerous if done in real life.   I just wish the Iraqis weren't portrayed like old style Westerns' "Red Indians" (ie unable to hit the broadside of a barn from inside with a handful of gravel and the Marines are all "dead-eye dicks"   ).

[Maverick]

Haven't heard of Generation Kill.  Is it a Foxtel sort of thing?

Sounds rather interesting.  Marines I've met tend to be fairly intense characters.  One guy I worked with in prison was as quite as a mouse, but when things went down, it was a 180 for him.  All business & slightly psychotic with it.  He used to be a SAW gunner back in the day and I could easily imagine him being very gung-ho in the field.

Just a shame, as you say, that all insurgents are supposedly untrained & useless.  Must be disappointing when the 'good guys' get dead as often as they do.

Regards,

Mav