F-16 and (Mitsubushi) F2

[KJ_Lesnick]

Jeffry Fontaine,

Thank you for the image.  It looks really nice.  If I may ask, do you have any idea how much longer it would have been over the regular F-16?


BTW:What difference would the MSIP IV mods it would have had, over the MSIP III?  Was the MSIP IV cancelled by the USAF because of this plane's cancellation or for a different reason?

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Thank you for the image.  It looks really nice.  If I may ask, do you have any idea how much longer it would have been over the regular F-16?


BTW:What difference would the MSIP IV mods it would have had, over the MSIP III?  Was the MSIP IV cancelled by the USAF because of this plane's cancellation or for a different reason?

Sorry but you are asking questions for which I have no answer since it goes far beyond the scope of my interest in the yard dart.  The description from the link provided states that the Agile F-16 was of similar dimensions to the Mitsubushi F-2.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Jeffry Fontaine,

Sorry but you are asking questions for which I have no answer since it goes far beyond the scope of my interest in the yard dart.

Oh well...

The description from the link provided states that the Agile F-16 was of similar dimensions to the Mitsubushi F-2.

Okay, so it's around 50 feet long...


KJ Lesnick

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Sorry but you are asking questions for which I have no answer since it goes far beyond the scope of my interest in the yard dart.

Oh well...

Here is an additional link for the F-16/F-2 from Greg V. Goebel's Air Vectors Page that has a lot of good dimensional data and history: The Lockheed Martin F-16 (v1.0.3 / TOC (4 chapters) / 01 may 09 / greg goebel / public domain)

I find Mr. Goebel's work very informative.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Thank you

[Gary F]

KJ,

  Most of what's available on Agile Falcon is just what the proposal was ... increase wing area by 25%, extend fuselage a bit to account for structure needed for new wing, an added pylon under the wing.  The proposal would have had to progress farther to answer some of the questions you're asking.  The money wasn't available for the project and USAF couldn't get the European operators interested enough to front money to get the project going, either.
  Back around the time of the proposal, there were one or two articles in Aviation Week that may have some answers or speculations for you, but I've never seen any real hard numbers otherwise.
  That artwork Jeffrey linked is the only one I've ever seen, although in black-white and color versions.
  As to whether it would have lived up to the proposals goals ... hard to say.  It makes sense, but so did the XFV-12.
  Also, remember that Japan used some advanced technology to be able to build the new wings for the F-2 and make them lighter and stronger (although they still had some serious cracking problems) , something the US didn't have earlier when the Agile Falcon was pitched.  Access to that large composite structure technology was one of the main reasons Lockheed got so heavily involved in the F-2 program.
  Perhaps if the US had tried to do Agile Falcon back then, without the newer tech that Japan had available later, the wings would have been heavier and the gains not enough with the ac still needing an engine upgrade, much as going from Hornet to SuperHornet, with bigger fuselage and wings, still required larger engines, and still having performance questions out there.
  I like the Falcon and would like to think Agile Falcon would have done well, but who knows for sure since it wasn't built.  XFV-12 was built and then found not to work.  I like the F-2 a lot also, but it does have it's own issues.  And for the cost of an F-2 you could buy a lot of F-16s.  I always thought JASDF should have just bought a batch of F-16s, operated them for some period of years and then used that experience to do some kind of major upgrade program, but that's just my opinion.

regards,
Gary F

[KJ_Lesnick]

Gary F,

Also, remember that Japan used some advanced technology to be able to build the new wings for the F-2 and make them lighter and stronger (although they still had some serious cracking problems) , something the US didn't have earlier when the Agile Falcon was pitched.  Access to that large composite structure technology was one of the main reasons Lockheed got so heavily involved in the F-2 program.

What kind of technology and composites were used by the Japanese (and Lockheed) on the F-2?  Out of curiosity, is that what drove up the cost of the F-2 so much?


KJ Lesnick

[Gary F]

KJ,

  I'm not this subject matters expert, but, there used to be 2 major techniques for doing composite structures and they were limited to the size of the parts that could be made.  Japan managed to come up with an advance to one of them (I want to say it was thermoplastic forming of large structures ... but re-read the first six words of my post ) and this is what would have allowed them to form the large wing panels as individual pieces, supposedly saving weight and being very strong.
  As to costs ... probably lots of factors but it takes a lot of money to do a modern fighter ac, but then to only build it in limited quantity just really drives up the price.  That's one reason I thought they should have just gone F-16's from the start and saved lots for money just from there being so many already built (economy of scale).  With all the savings they could have gradually invested in upgrades to their own specs if they chose to do so, or just bought more advanced versions as they became available, or gone in partners with other F-16 operators for advanced versions.

Gary F

[KJ_Lesnick]

So if an F-16 was designed with that composite wing, it would have been cheaper than say the F-2?

[elmayerle]

So if an F-16 was designed with that composite wing, it would have been cheaper than say the F-2?

Only if the new wing was purchased in large numbers.  As I recall, there were only some 79 or so F-2s produced, that's really not a vaible production number ofr getting the costs down.  Mind you, I quite suspect that LM-Aero learned a good bit from that effort that went into the F-22 and F-35.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Dear Evan,

Only if the new wing was purchased in large numbers.

How many agile falcons would you guess have had to have been bought in order for it to have been reasonable in cost?

Mind you, I quite suspect that LM-Aero learned a good bit from that effort that went into the F-22 and F-35.

So the Japanese imparted a great degree of engineering knowledge to Lockheed?  Did Lockheed have any role in the regular F-16 as well?


KJ Lesnick

[elmayerle]

Well, Lockheed-Martin had quite a role in the later history of the F-16 when they bought GD-Fort Worth in the mid-nineties after it was devalued by GD in the wake of the A-12 cancellation (and from what the folks there told me, there were some very valid reasons for axing that program). Lockheed-Martin later consolidated Fort Worth, Lockheed-Georgia, and their remaining aeronautics operations in California into Lockheed-Martin Aeronautics Company so that they'd speak with one voice, not several. The main thing they got from the Japanese on the F-2 was knowledge and experience on building composite wings.  I suspect this may have effected the F-22 and I know that it informed the design and contruction of the F-35's wings.

[KJ_Lesnick]

Dear Evan,

The main thing they got from the Japanese on the F-2 was knowledge and experience on building composite wings.

By the time the F-22, was built did any US Aerospace companies other than Lockheed, have similar expertise in building composite wing structures?  I'd have thought Northrop would have been quite good in that department too


By the way, if you know, assuming it's not classified, did the F-2's wings possess aeroelastic tailoring to them?


KJ Lesnick

[elmayerle]

Northrop did (and they had a lot of other composite background, too - that's one reason they're a major sub-contractor on the F-35).

As to the other, I didn't work on that program and didn't know anyone who did, so I can't really comment.

[KJ_Lesnick]

I'm wondering why didn't General Dynamics didn't try to get Northrop to sign on as a subcontractor for the wing-design...  Did GD know Northrop had that ability?

KJ