Uss Bon Homme Richard/Oriskany (?)

[P1127]

Any ideas on kits for these two (were they modified Essexes?) - they were both apparently offered to the RN in the late 70s/early 80s as the US was concerned about the lack of carrier power in the Eastern Atlantic.

The UK turned them down, but I could see an HMS Washington. Air wing of Phantoms & Buccaneers, or maybe Phantoms and A-7s, E-3s....  

[elmayerle]

Any ideas on kits for these two (were they modified Essexes?) - they were both apparently offered to the RN in the late 70s/early 80s as the US was concerned about the lack of carrier power in the Eastern Atlantic.

The UK turned them down, but I could see an HMS Washington. Air wing of Phantoms & Buccaneers, or maybe Phantoms and A-7s, E-3s....

According to data from http://www.hazegray.org , both of these are modified Essex class.  If memory serves me correctly, Revell US used to make kits of one or both of these.

HTH,
Evan

[P1127]

Any ideas on kits for these two (were they modified Essexes?) - they were both apparently offered to the RN in the late 70s/early 80s as the US was concerned about the lack of carrier power in the Eastern Atlantic.

The UK turned them down, but I could see an HMS Washington. Air wing of Phantoms & Buccaneers, or maybe Phantoms and A-7s, E-3s....

According to data from http://www.hazegray.org , both of these are modified Essex class.  If memory serves me correctly, Revell US used to make kits of one or both of these.

HTH,
Evan

Hi Evan!

Nice to hear from you again!

I'll have alook round that site, thanks! Ships ain't my usual bag.

dave

[elmayerle]

Any ideas on kits for these two (were they modified Essexes?) - they were both apparently offered to the RN in the late 70s/early 80s as the US was concerned about the lack of carrier power in the Eastern Atlantic.

The UK turned them down, but I could see an HMS Washington. Air wing of Phantoms & Buccaneers, or maybe Phantoms and A-7s, E-3s....

According to data from http://www.hazegray.org , both of these are modified Essex class.  If memory serves me correctly, Revell US used to make kits of one or both of these.

HTH,
Evan

Hi Evan!

Nice to hear from you again!

I'll have alook round that site, thanks! Ships ain't my usual bag.

dave

Ships aren't my usual bag, either.  But I've the pleasure of knowing some great information-hunting folk on other forums and I've remembered that URL.

As to an airwing, how about a mix of Phantom FG.1's, Buccaneers. A-7's, and E-2's?  Especially if the A-7's were A-7E's which would give you a Spey-powered combat element (though the TF-41 in the A-7E was arguably a bit better version of the Spey).

[Geoff_B]

Any ideas on kits for these two (were they modified Essexes?) - they were both apparently offered to the RN in the late 70s/early 80s as the US was concerned about the lack of carrier power in the Eastern Atlantic.

Currently the only kit available is the old Revell 1/542 scale kit of the Angled Deck Essex, its been released in many guises with different airgroups from its original 1950's build with early jets to the late 60's with Attack Carrier, ASW carrier and the Training Carrier Lexington. The only trouble with this scale is no aftermarket stuff is available for it making it hard to get alternative aircraft. Ideally a 1/700 scale kit would be nice but they are only available in their WWII configuration.

A 1/350 version is scheduled by Panda for next year and with the Nimitz and its aircraft due out plus White Ensign Model FAA aircraft a RN version might be possible, but it will also be dammed expensive !!!!!

Cheers

Thorvic

(Also why replace worn out WWII carriers with more worn out WWII carriers ? as the Essexs were as old as the Arks !!!!)  

[elmayerle]

(Also why replace worn out WWII carriers with more worn out WWII carriers ? as the Essexs were as old as the Arks !!!!)

Well, going by the website I mentioned, they went through considerable overhaul and upgrade when they were re-worked in the early 1950's and were comparatively late-build ships of their class (long-hulled Essex).  As to why these two carriers, they were the last two upgraded Essex class that were still fitted out as attack carriers rather than a lesser fit as anti-submarine carriers.

[Ogwash]

Well, going by the website I mentioned, they went through considerable overhaul and upgrade when they were re-worked in the early 1950's and were comparatively late-build ships of their class (long-hulled Essex).

So were Eagle, Victorious & Hermes (Ark Royals refit was never as good as the full class A refits and as a result was pretty knackered by the mid 70's where as Eagle would probably lasted well into the 80's and beyond. The UK would possibly have taken a Forrestal class but the Essex's were retired in the early 70's into Reserve as they were unable to operate the bigger jets like the Phantom. Only Oriskany was modified with a stronger steel deck as opposed to wood.

What was really needed was a new class of smaller carriers, but those plans went out the window.

Cheers

Ogwash

[P1127]

[
(Also why replace worn out WWII carriers with more worn out WWII carriers ? as the Essexs were as old as the Arks !!!!)

IIRC, the offer was made just after Thatcher came to power, the idea being that the Tories would be more receptive to defence spending - these two would be interim until the UK got a Carrier force up and running  

[Geoff_B]

IIRC, the offer was made just after Thatcher came to power, the idea being that the Tories would be more receptive to defence spending - these two would be interim until the UK got a Carrier force up and running

Only trouble was these two had been out of service for some years and would cost a fortune to refit, re-equip and man. Thats why Hermes went so damned quickly into reserve once Illustrious was in service and Invincible refitted. We just didn't have the manpower to work the old style steam plants anymore, if you noticed we very rapidly converted to an all Gas Turbine powered Navy during the 80's. Hermes and the frigates we sold abroad are still going strong nearly 20 yrs after being sold, but countries like India, Chile and Indonesia have cheap manpower and can thus afford them, but their age now dictates long expensive refits just to keep them seaworthy.

The BAC 583 Cyclone F1 if iot had been proceeded with rather than the Navy being forced down the 1154 path and then the Phantom, could have changed the fates of the medium sized carriers. The new smaller swing wing naval fighter would have been better able to operate off our smaller carriers so the big large CVA-01 design would not have been as critical. The fairly newly rebuilt class A carriers Victorious, Hermes, Eagle (all modernised extensively 1959-1964) could have had a suitable replacement for Sea Vixen by 1970 and would have been quite capable carriers in the 70's. The choice of Phantom meant larger caariers with long decks and powerful cats so the smaller hermes and Vic were too small to handle them and Eagle was sacrificed to keep a shipyard quiet in refitting Ark Royal to carry phantoms (even though she was never brought up to the same standard of Eagle). The US could have continued to operate their Essex classes if they bought them as these carriers were retired when they discovered the Phantom was too big & heavy to use effectively. Perhaps then we would have seen some more export sales of the Essexs with Auirgroups of Tracers/Vikings, Cyclones and A-4 Skyhawks, maybe the jaguar M could have been sold overseas as a Skyhawk replacement ?

Cheers

Thorvic
(Wondering if i should discuss with Lee & Joe on doing a what-if history for the Cyclone as its implications could have been very far reaching !!!!!)

[Alvis]

The RCN was offered an Essex in the late 50s, but turned it down for a couple of reasons...
1: Manpower restrictions being what they were, they could have manned her only by berthing most of the rest of the fleet
2: The UK invoked the "return in current configuration" clause on the HMCS Magnificient, meaning the RCN would have had to pay to have the Maggie refitted to full up modern standards...so it was decided to return Maggie and buy Bonaventure instead...with all the bells and whistles installed. like steam catapults and angled deck and tea trolleys and aardvarks and...Nothing like getting screwed over by the old team...as opposed to the new team...

:ar:
Alvis

[Matt Wiser]

An Essex as a CVA on Yankee Station usually had two F-8 squadrons, an A-1 squadron, two A-4 squadrons, plus a VAH det with A-3s (usually as tankers, but did drop iron in low-threat areas), an E-1 det, a UH-2 det for local SAR and VERTREP.  A-6, F-4, and E-2 couldn't operate as they were too heavy. A-7s did replace A-4s in 71-72 LINEBACKER ops over NVN, while the A-1 outfits either got A-6s or A-7s, and the last Oriskany cruise in 1975 had three A-7 squadrons, in addition to the others. Hancock (CVA-19) in 1972 had A-4 and A-7 as well as F-8.
VA-164 even had two TA-4Js rigged with Pave Spike laser designator pods to buddy lase for other Skyhawks. CVSs (ASW carriers) had an S-2 squadron, an SH-3 squadron, a VAW det with E-1s or EA-1 Skyraiders, plus a det of either F-8s or A-4s from a VSF squadron (they flew A-4s as fighters from the CVSs). USS Intrepid(CVS-11) flew CVW-10 operating as a CVA on three Yankee Station cruises, with only one F-8 squadron, two A-1 squadrons (VA-176 on the 1966 cruise shot down a MiG-17!) two A-4 squadrons, plus the VAW and helo dets. BTW she was the last ship thru Suez prior to the Six-Day War breaking out in '67. The second and third cruises had two F-8 squadrons, and on the third, four A-4 squadrons. (A-1s went to either the boneyard or to either the USAF as Sandys or to the VNAF)