Avro Manchester, Lancaster, Lancastrian, Lincoln, Shackleton

[nev]

OK, I read somewhere several years ago that the Lanc was only slightly slower than the Me110 nightfighter variants with all their kit and that a Lanc without the 3 turrets, their guns ammo and crew, would, due to the weight loss and drag reduction, have been able to outrun German nightfighters.  What do you guys reckon?  High speed Lancs a goer?

Or

I read earlier this year a book on 105 squadron Mossies.  The mossie crews were adamant that the way for Bomber Command to go was to get rid of the "heavies" altogether and go for an all Mossie force.  
You can make 2 Mossies for every 1 Lanc, crew them and still have 4 men to spare.  OK, so your 2 mossies only carry 8000lb between them as opposed to 14000lb on the Lanc, but would the lower support and (surely) much lower loss rate (due to them being so hard to intercept at night) outweigh that?

I'm interested to hear your opinions on this

[Edwin]

On a related note, sort of, when the early Typhoons were using Vultures (as used by the Manchester) they worked fine.  It was only with the Manchester and trying to lift so much weight that they became troublesome.  However, Rolls were having a hard time trying to produce enough Merlins (this was 1940), so gave up on the Vulture and the Peregrine, which was a shame as the Whirlwind would have been a more effective aircraft if it didn't have so many engine problems.

:g

Well, why didn't they simply go all-out on Merlin production, make it the standard for front-line aircraft (at least until better powerplants were developed) and redesign the Whirlwind to use the Merlin? They could also have salvaged/recycled/rehabilitated engines and retired/damaged aircraft as well for second-line/training/non-combat use. "Waste not, want not."    :u

[Amphion]

On the topic of Jet Lanc's. In 1950-59 the RSwAF flew a Lancaster Mk 1 fitted with a jet engine in a nacelle below the bomb bay. The plane was clean as far as armament goes and was used as a research plattform.

[Peter Hobbins]

RE Whirlwinds - I've got the bits of an Airfix Whirlwind and some spare Mossie engine nacelles, and plan to create a RAAF Merlin-engined strafer/interdiction aircraft - a role we Aussies used the Spit Mk VIIIs for towards the end of the war. However, the Whirlistrafer (?) would have had significantly better range than a Spit, and - with the fuel system sorted out - better twin-engined survivability on long overwater missions. Given the extra torque and weight of the Merlins, I'm thinking of pretty much retaining the Mossie nacelles to help balance out weight and lateral stability - which is what Westlands had to do with the Welkin. All I need to do is clear a few kits from my build pile and I'm there!

[Edwin]

The simple answer is that it would be potentially suicidal to place all your faith in ONE engine - what happens if the Luftwaffe get lucky and wipe out the engine factories?
It's far safer to have an alternate engine, although Rolls quickly dropped the Peregrine and Vulture (but kept with the Griffon) when they realised they were against a wall.
As for the radials, these are far better for bombers (all the RAF bombers bar the Lanc and Mossie (plus the early Halifaxes) used radial engines, mainly because they were better at withstanding battle damage  - air cooled means no radiators to damage, and if the bombers are using radials, it means more engines for the fighters.  This didn't stop the armchair warriors from wasting Merlins on Hawker Henley target tugs, especially as the aircraft was designed as a dive bomber and could have been used to stem an invasion.  I have seen a photo of one of the wartime Henleys with underwing bomb racks

Good point. Granted, then, that they should have kept radial engine production going for the bombers.

You also make a good point about the Henleys. Why, then, didn't they simply reserve Vulture (an inauspicious name for an engine, to be sure... :u ) or Peregrine production for Henleys and such and (as I suggested above) reserve Merlins for front-line a/c? (I guess "muppets" are found in pretty much every age and war... )

[Martin H]

Several Lancasters and Lincolns served in the Uk a test beds for the RR Avon. with the outer merlins replaced by those new fangled hot air blowers.

And to continue. The Henley.  It was hawkers entry for the the same contract as the Battle. The bods at the air Ministry decided that Hawkers had enough on their plate with the Hurricane, to worry about another type. Hence the RAF ended up with the Battle.

Merlin Whirlwinds.  Now the airframe could take it, but the fuel system couldnt, each engine had its own fuel system and there was no way to tranfer fuel from one side to another, so you loose an engine, but cant make use of the fuel that is no longer required for the dead lump. Westland did propose a MK II with merlins but the Air Min decided that the Spitfire and the Hurricane had to have priorty over all other fighter types at the time. So the idea queitly died. pity as the Mk II promised a range (with drop tanks) of Berlin and back with some extra to allow for playing with the Luftwaffe's home defence fighters. 4 20mil's plus blistering speed would have been any german fighters nightmare.  I have heard it said that even the MK I was dreaded by the Luftwaffe, with at least one FW-190 unit in France, having standing orders to avoid contact with Whirlwinds, after looseing a number of its planes to a pair of whirlwinds over the channal.

OK back to Lancs.  Im already working on a cleaned up lanc but I dont want to say to much as its going to be (hopefully) my contribution to the What if sig dispaly at Telford this year.
All i will say is that is has bits from a Halifax, a pair of Mossi's and a few small items from a Privateer. She was to wear anti flash white, but one of the lads at my local club asked me to modifiy my plans as my intended target in the back story was his familys home town (yep he's German). Now shes in standard Bomber command cammo and is likely to end up as a path finder.


TTFN
Martin H

[nev]

about the SBS of a plan to use 617's Lancs to drop a 1 man fast attack boat which would be packed with explosives, and sailed at high speed straight into enemy shipping in port with the crewman ejecting before impact.  6 planes were converted before the project was (sensibly) scrapped.  Anyone got any more info on these planes?  An "almost real" WIf right up wooksta's street.


In the same chapter it described a plan by the SBS to attack 4 BV-222 Vikings moored in a French lake.  That too was scrapped, but it would make a neat diorama using the new Revell kit (featured in this months SAMI) and some little commando figures sneaking up on it

[Captain Canada]

Both those sound like neat ideas.....and good models to boot !

I've always fancied a Lanc with a boat underneath, like the B-17 Rescue birds.... :ar:  

[Radish]

You mean Like the Lancaster ASR?
I sevice from about 46 until the mid-50s??

Can anyone remember Ken wheeler's 6-engined Lancaster in the Norwegian-Fjord camo with nose mounted rocket-rails? Flying?? At the Nationals about 5 years ago??

How about.....
elongating the nose, shortnening the aft-wing section, changing the position of the wing and having a nosewheel??
Wing-tip tanks and COIN camouflage?
 

[Martin H]

Can anyone remember Ken wheeler's 6-engined Lancaster in the Norwegian-Fjord camo with nose mounted rocket-rails? Flying?? At the Nationals about 5 years ago??

Yeah i remember it terry. rocket rails on the side of the nose, and a pair of what looked like 75mils (could have been 40's) in pods under the nose
Awesome looking beast.

[Mairfrog]

Well, I imagine it'd be pretty similar to the Nene and Avon testbeds. Four great big, cigar shaped nacelles. Make more sense on a Lincoln though.

[Davey B]

I had an idea for a Lancaster nuclear bomber, circa 1946  

It'd be a 617 sqn B.1(special) fitted with wings and nose from a Shakleton to reduce wind resistance.  Basically this beast would have had 4 Griffons with Nitrous Oxide boost and a pair of RR Derwents in the back of the outer nacelles. Nuke would be a Little Boy-style uranium weapon in a Grand Slam case, delivered onto Dusseldorf in a toss-bombing manouvere from low level    

Yes it's barmy. Speaks volumes really...

[TsrJoe]

re Wookstas post above...

...i have a mention of a mid 1940's Avro project for a '4 jet Lancaster' bomber, but unfortunately havent as yet been able to uncover any further details or drawings opf the project other than it was to be powered by four W.2B engines !

any further information on this or similar projects woild be most welcome...

theres an interesting potential lineup to be made here...jet Whirlwind, jet Mosquito, jet Hornet, all of which have been documented previously, added to which a jet Lancaster would look cool (theres even a flying boat Lanc too, nice easy chop crossing a Sunderland and Lancaster!)

happy modelling, cheers, joe  

[Chris707]

Lanc w/a Shackleton style front nose grafted on, dorsal turret and underneath radome taken off to cut drag...didn't get the shape of the jets right - can't find all my refs for the Lancastrian testbed for use as a guide...

Chris
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http://www.dataviewbooks.com

[Nigel Bunker]

I have just bought a Revell Shackleton at Hannant's Colindale shop for £9.99. The engines and ourboard nacelles will go towards my Lancaster VI.

This leaves me with an engineless Shack. My waste not/want not mentality suggests that it is re-engined as a what if.

Ideas please! Jets or Props. And who could the operator be?

Rules are:

I don't want to buy say 4 Tucanos to donate their turboprops - the cost must be minimised.

And I don't want to carve new engines - one would be bad enogh but four - ughh!