Avro Manchester, Lancaster, Lancastrian, Lincoln, Shackleton

[jcf]

SARO S.42 Lancaster based flying boat.

Jon

Wow    Nice find!
Has there ever been a conversion kit for later Sunderland hulls?

If you mean the type with the faired step, no conversion kit is necessary as all it takes is plastic card and putty.

Jon

[Mossie]

Made a slight mess with that link, there's more pics here, but I guess most will have worked it out.
http://www.xplanes3d.com/Projects%20Pages/Vickers_C/Vickers_C_Thumbs.html

Even more projects in the gallery:
http://www.xplanes3d.com/web_pages/Gallery_Gen.html

Like the idea of a flying boat Lanc.  I really would have thought that would be a preserve for these pages, wouldn't have guessed it was real.  Now if we feed Rat enough beer, or threaten to take it from him......

[jcf]

Jon: I did mean the faired step. The thought of a conversion hull kit popped up because then you don't need to sacrifice an Airfix Sunderland.

Sacrifice? No need for sacrifice, just use the Sunderland wings to make a long wing Stirling. 

Jon

[PR19_Kit]

But surely the Airfix Sunderland III already comes with the faired in step?

You need to 'cut and shut' it to make the earlier Sunderland I with the sharp edged vertical step.

[MAD]

617 were training in '45 in the US.....they weren't there for the scenery!
How do I know?
Saw a crewman's Log Book  

This is 'dink di' about RAF 617 Sq in the U.S?
or are we 'what if'??
As I find this very interesting!!!!!!!

M.A.D

[kitnut617]

617 were training in '45 in the US.....they weren't there for the scenery!
How do I know?
Saw a crewman's Log Book  

Don't think so Radish, my Dad served in 617 Sqn. during the last two years of the war (1944-1946), when the war ended, 617 was in India, somewhere near Calcutta. I know because my Dad told me that's where he was.  When the war ended in Europe, 617 was one of the first squadron's to move to the Far East and they didn't take their B Mk.I Specials either, they took Mk.VII's painted white tops over black bottoms.   Much later (1947 I think) 617 did a 'goodwill' tour of Canada and the US but my Dad had already gone home by then.

[RLBH]

Only two aircraft were considered by the AAF for the atomic strike role in 1944-45. One was the Lancaster. Second was the B-29. Lanc was rejected due to range limit from the Marianas, (3,000 miles round trip) and the dimensions of the implosion (Fat Man) bomb.  The RAF bomber force that was scheduled for the Pacific was to be based on Okinawa. Little Boy would've fit in a Lancaster's bomb bay, though.

Interestingly enough, the A-bomb carrying B-29s used the same shackles for the A-bomb as the Lancaster used for the Grand Slam.  I found this out on a tour through SIlver Hill when they were rebuilding the Enola Gay.

I believe that this was because it was the only single-point release then available for stores of that size.

[kitnut617]

617 were training in '45 in the US.....they weren't there for the scenery!
How do I know?
Saw a crewman's Log Book  

Don't think so Radish, my Dad served in 617 Sqn. during the last two years of the war (1944-1946), when the war ended, 617 was in India, somewhere near Calcutta. I know because my Dad told me that's where he was.  When the war ended in Europe, 617 was one of the first squadron's to move to the Far East and they didn't take their B Mk.I Specials either, they took Mk.VII's painted white tops over black bottoms.   Much later (1947 I think) 617 did a 'goodwill' tour of Canada and the US but my Dad had already gone home by then.

I have just spoken to my Dad to confirm what I wrote above and I have to correct a couple of things.  In 1945 when the war in Europe ended, Dad was in 617 at Woodhall Spa, and they moved to Waddington for a while (training he thinks). Then in January 1946 they flew out to India (Dad was an Instrument Fitter) in the Mk.VII's but Dad got sick when they had got as far as Tripolii and got left behind for a few days. He was picked up by No.9 Sqn. and flown the rest of the way to Salbani, which is near what was Calcutta. 617 was at Digri but before my Dad got transfered back to 617 he was given an early de-mob.  I'm pretty sure 617 was never ever in the US during 1945. 

[Weaver]

Here's a thought that occurred to me last night:

What If the RAF adopted a similar doctrine to the USAAF and persisted with daylight bombing, using aircraft that sacrificed a lot of bomb load for heavy defensive weaponry? In other words, what would a Lanc look like adapted for the B-17 mission?

I'm thinking:

2 x 20mm cannon in modified tail turret.

2 x quad .303 Boulton Paul dorsal turrets, the additional one being immediately behind the cockpit. Yes I know that .50 cals would be better, but I'm trying to keep it British-feeling. I'm also thinking that the second dorsal turret would be preferred to beam guns, which the RAF never seemed keen on.

Some kind of all-new ball or ventral turret by Lucas or BP.

Shorter bomb bay.


Colour-scheme: cammo over black would pretty pointless: cammo over grey, or some kind of all-grey finish?

[rickshaw]

Alternatively you could add a belly turret of some sort, the lack of one being the real achilles heel of the Lanc    

The Manchester and later Lancaster were both equipped initially with a belly turret.  It was later removed as being largely useless.  The hole was used later as the mounting point for the H2S scanner and radome in later marks.

[Weaver]

Alternatively you could add a belly turret of some sort, the lack of one being the real achilles heel of the Lanc    

The Manchester and later Lancaster were both equipped initially with a belly turret.  It was later removed as being largely useless.  The hole was used later as the mounting point for the H2S scanner and radome in later marks.

Wasn't it one of those periscope jobs though, the ones where the gunner had a uselessly narrow field of vision and got motion sickness after a few minutes? I'm talking about a proper B-17-style ball turret or some equivalent thereof.

[rickshaw]

Alternatively you could add a belly turret of some sort, the lack of one being the real achilles heel of the Lanc    

The Manchester and later Lancaster were both equipped initially with a belly turret.  It was later removed as being largely useless.  The hole was used later as the mounting point for the H2S scanner and radome in later marks.

Wasn't it one of those periscope jobs though, the ones where the gunner had a uselessly narrow field of vision and got motion sickness after a few minutes? I'm talking about a proper B-17-style ball turret or some equivalent thereof.

Wasn't going to happen.  The RAF simply didn't think along those lines.   The closest you might get would be a step in the lower fuselage with a fixed gun position as on the H.P. Hampden:

[Weaver]

Alternatively you could add a belly turret of some sort, the lack of one being the real achilles heel of the Lanc    

The Manchester and later Lancaster were both equipped initially with a belly turret.  It was later removed as being largely useless.  The hole was used later as the mounting point for the H2S scanner and radome in later marks.

Wasn't it one of those periscope jobs though, the ones where the gunner had a uselessly narrow field of vision and got motion sickness after a few minutes? I'm talking about a proper B-17-style ball turret or some equivalent thereof.

Wasn't going to happen.  The RAF simply didn't think along those lines.   The closest you might get would be a step in the lower fuselage with a fixed gun position as on the H.P. Hampden:

Don't know about that: the first version of the Wimpy had a retractable dustbin turret, and as you said, Lancs had belly turret. The reason the RAF wasn't interested later was because they were committed to night bombing where it was of little value, but the point of my whiff is What If they were doing night bombing and were interested in ventral guns?

[jcf]

Some Halifax III were equipped with the Preston-Green single .50 browning mount.

From http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/hphalifax/guns.htm :

   Preston Green under defence mounting Mk.II
   On 29th February 1944, a Halifax III, (LW650), took off from Boscombe Down. It appeared to be just another Halifax,
with the bulging blister of H2S radar beneath the fuselage, but close inspection would have revealed a 0.5in. Browning
protruding through the rear of the blister. The aircraft was being used for trials of the Preston Green under-defence turret.
   Preston Green began with an American mounting used by USAAF bombers. It gave free movement of the gun whilst
providing a firm anchorage. Work had begun 18 months earlier, when it was suspected that enemy night fighters were
attacking from below. At this time, the H2S sets were looked on as an essential aid, but production of bombers was
outstripping the supply of radars, and it was decided to install Preston Green mountings in all Halifax IIIs.
   The adapter was fixed across the base of a bowl-shaped enclosure immediately behind the bomb bay. The gunner had
an aft-facing bucket seat within the blister, with a tilting back rest. The gun could be swung clear of its aperture when
searching, but could rapidly locked in the firing position if needed.
   Had more Bomber Command aircraft been fitted with the Preston Green turret, this previously non-existent protection
from attack from below would have cut down the toll taken by Luftwaffe night fighters using upwards firing cannon.
Unfortunately, when H2S production increased, the turrets were taken out, much to the annoyance of bomber crews.
   Details of the Preston Green Mk.II

      Aircraft   Halifax B Mk.III
      Position   Mid-under   
      Motive power   Hand controlled
      Gun mounting   Bell adapter (US)      
      Armament   0.5in. Browning Mk.II      
      Ammunition   200 rounds in box and 50 rounds in duct
      Field of fire   Rotation 30° to each beam.
            Elevation between 45&deg-90°      
      Gunsight   Free gun reflector sight Mk.III
      Dia. of bowl   49in.
      Fire control   Manual or electrical      
     
Evidently a few Canadian aircraft were equipped with a twin-.50 variation.

Jon

[Logan Hartke]

Here's a little more on the Preston Green...

http://www.bombercrew.com/public_html/AIRCRAFT.HTM





Cheers,

Logan