Dystopias; Why are we so fascinated?

[bobbo]

As an old Science Fiction/Alternative History fan, I've noticed how some of us seem to be fascinated with assorted Dystopias:  Third Reich & variations on that theme, Alternative Soviet Unions (not that the original was that great either), 1984, Fatherland  and my favorite, the DRAKA series by S. M. Stirling.

1.  What attracts us to them?

2.  Has anyone read the DRAKAA series & done anything with it?  PErsonally, I'd love to see some of the air & spacecraft from the series . . .

Bob in Delaware (USA)

[The Rat]

As a counterpoint, I'm not one of them. My favourite SF author is Arthur C. Clarke, who doesn't venture into that. Well, some of his collaborations did, but I didn't enjoy the sequels to Rendezvous With Rama, or The City and the Stars, precisely because they deviated so far from his style. You will rarely even find a villain in his writings, where there is major conflict both sides are usually presented sympathetically.

[Mossie]

I think the attraction of dystopias is that there is some level of reality in them.  Many science fiction & alternative history writers give us a rosy future, where things can only get better with the passage of time and/or improved technology.  The reality is that this rarely the case, people seem to forget the pasts problems & repeat them, improved technology also invents new & more efficient ways to kill & wage war.

Time goes on, wars are still fought, peoples are stil oppressed.  For me, dystopias reflect that, we live in one & no-one in power really seems make an effort to change it, or at least finds it's a near impossibility.  I like utopian fiction too, as a kid I really believed that there was a damn good chance it may happen in my life time.  As an adult, I've become much more cynical.  But I'd still like to believe it could happen.

[Rafael]

As an adult, I've become much more cynical.  But I'd still like to believe it could happen.

Yea. Me too. Reality has a way to overcome the wildest of fictions. But not in the direction I would have liked it to go. But there is still hope, Obi-wan.

Rafa

[GTX]

As a counterpoint, I'm not one of them. My favourite SF author is Arthur C. Clarke, who doesn't venture into that. Well, some of his collaborations did, but I didn't enjoy the sequels to Rendezvous With Rama, or The City and the Stars, precisely because they deviated so far from his style. You will rarely even find a villain in his writings, where there is major conflict both sides are usually presented sympathetically.

Rat,

Were you aware that a movie of Rendezvous With Rama is being released next year with Morgan Freeman in the lead role?  See the following:

http://www.revelationsent.com/site/projects/in_development/rama.html
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0134933/


As to Dystopia fascination, I think it often has a lot to do with the fact that it provides an avenue to say, "what if this had happened instead...".  In other words, there is an ability to diverge from true history at some point.  This is probably easier to do with the 'bad' side or losing side rather then the other since we know what happened there.

Regards,

Greg

[Brian da Basher]

Dystopias also offer a comparison between them and our current state of affairs. After reading a dystopian novel, we can say that things in our reality aren't so bad.

Brian da Basher

[Joe C-P]

Most of us like to model military devices. In a utopian alternative, there are no real requirements for military, whereas a dystopian view generally posits military action.

I like my future realistically better. Things have improved, but humanity is still human, albeit trending toward our better natures.

[Madoc]

Bob,

Times change.

There was a time, a time that went on for a good while, in which dystopias were hard to find.

Back in the 80's the Smithsonian Museum had its first <A HREF="http://www.museumonmainstreet.org/exhibs_yesterdays/yesterdays.htm" TARGET="_blank">"Yesterday's Tomorrows: Past Visions of the American Future"</A> exhibit.  It was collection of visions of the future from years gone by.  Dark, depressing, or pessimistic views of the future were really hard to find until the late 1960's hit and then that's all there was.  It's like someone hit the toggle switch and put everything over into the dark and depressing mode.

Perhaps it's a reflection of just how good things actually are that we now afford ourselves the luxury of thinking them worse and getting all angst ridden about it.

Look back at how the future was supposed to be even in the early and mid-60's.  Think the Thunderbirds here were everything was gonna be Fab!  All high tech, all gleaming, all heavy industry, all high standard of living and no human misery anywhere to be found.  If there was a problem anywhere in the world it was most likely due to there not being enough high tech applied to it.  Visions like Niven & Pournelle's "Known Space" future histories are another good example. 

The thing is, we're actually a helluvalot closer to that vision than ever before.  Every year that goes by the number of people in poverty declines.  The average human lifespan extends.  The number of people who've experienced war firsthand declines.  And life gets better, on average, for everyone on the planet.  We've been knocking off one disease after another and scientific advances keep snowballing and making things better and better.

But that ain't what folks are comfortable talking about.  They'd rather worry about this or that remote possibility of something really off the wall making things less than perfect.  Human nature I guess.  And if you try and point out how much better things are you get called a shill for Big Oil, Big Business, The Man, or some naive fool because everyone KNOWS things are getting worse!

Ah well, considering the ever proliferating number of outstanding plastic and resin model kits, I'd have to say that's absolute proof positive that things are getting better!

Madoc

[The Rat]

Were you aware that a movie of Rendezvous With Rama is being released next year with Morgan Freeman in the lead role?

I would suffer through a Fellini movie if Freeman was in it, but I hope they don't mess up the story with whiz-bang Hollywood love triangles and 'blowed up real gooood!' stuff.

[The Rat]

If there was a problem anywhere in the world it was most likely due to there not being enough high tech applied to it.  Visions like Niven & Pournelle's "Known Space" future histories are another good example.

One extremely dark and disturbing element in the Known Space series was the idea of the organ banks. Once people realised that they could extend their lives with easy transplants they were willing to allow legislators to enact capital punishment for minor crimes like accumulating too many traffic tickets. But Niven described his society so well that most were willing to see it as just the way things were done. He examined it in detail in A Gift From Earth, and I even enjoyed that despite the horrific nature of the problem.

I wish people today would realise that the idea has unfortunately come true in China, but let's leave it at that. [/political]

But I'm still not enamoured of dystopias. I mean, we have ozone depletion, global warming, water and air pollution, rogue states getting nukes, religious fundamentalists hijacking aircraft and governments, the whole world is going to hell in a handbasket and we'll all be dead in a generation, the last thing we need is pessimism!  [/sarcasm]

[bobbo]

In a recent discussion a few of us were discussing this further. One of the things we came up with was that a dystopia seems to give us a place to explore our "evil" side in a way that is more or less harmless and allows us to accept our imperfections (This was in a ethics discussion among some of us who are interested in theology & sociology and the interrelationships there . . but that's another thread or forum) and to see that "things could be worse."  We also feel that we can enjoy some things - like technological advances - that grow from the story lines.  For example, I'd love to see some of the spacecraft from Stone Dogs.  Or some of the aircraft from Harry Turtledoves assorted stories. 

Anyone have any favorite dystopias?

Bob in Delaware

[Mossie]

Day of the Triffiids, blimey, that brings it back.  Rarely got to watch it cos it was on at the same time I went to Cubs......  Remember The Tripods too?

[Sisko]

I for one thing think that Dystopian futures or alternate histories are worst case scenarios. We are fascinated by them because we wonder how many of them will or would have come to fruition, we can see some of our world in those stories.

As far as my favourite dystopias I think the British do it best.

Children of Men
V for Vendetta
1984

I am a pessimistic cynic and do not see a bright gleaming future. I see a gaudy cheap plastic knock off made in China, and it's not a very reliable or satisfying.

[The Rat]

Dystopias have always been with us because much good science fiction is not trying to predict a future, but trying to prevent a future. 1984 and Brave New World are probably the better known ones.

[BillSlim]

For some reason dystopias seem to be very popular in British science fiction and future history. Just look at some of the more famous ones are mentioned here and notice how many are British, we also seem to be more interested in what happens after a civilisation destroying disaster, rather than the disaster itself.

Since nobody has mentioned it I'll bring up Quatermass, which has a lot of dystopian elements to it, especially in the final one, which depicts an almost total collapse of civilisation. Even Doctor Who has always has a dystopian edge to it.
The dystopia does seem to be a little less popular these days, possibly because the doom merchants and the media are so busy coming up with real, or imagines ones.

Must be something about the British character.