F-11 (F11F) Tiger

[Archibald]

Le Fana de l'aviation of march 2008 had an interesting article on the F-11F Tiger genesis, including testimony of Erwin "Corky" Meyer.

This was a neat little fighter, lighter and smaller than the Crusader. In fact it  fitted nicely between the Skyhawk and F-8.

So whatif there had been upgraded multirole variants (aside the J-79 supersonic Super Tiger) ?

What about Tiger for Argentina on the 25 de Mayo carrier ?

Short comparison between the A-4B and F-11F (from Joe Baugher)

Specification of Douglas A4D-2 Skyhawk:

Engine: One Wright J65-W-16 turbojet, rated at 7700 lb.s.t. Performance: Maximum speed 649 mph at 4000 feet Cruising speed 493 mph. Stalling speed 137 mph. Combat ceiling 41,800 feet. Initial climb rate 7950 feet per minute. Combat range 1000 miles with a single Mk 28 weapon, 1650 with a Mk.28 and 2 3000 gallon drop tanks. Dimensions: Wingspan 27 feet 6 inches. Length 39 feet 4 inches, height 15 feet 2 inches. Wing Area 260 square feet.
Weights: 9146 pounds empty, 15,359 pounds combat weight 17,535 pounds gross, 22,500 pounds maximum. Armament: Two 20-mm cannon with 100 rpg. 3 underwing pylons.

Specification of the Grumman F11F-1 Tiger:
These figures refer to late production (long-nosed) F11F-1s unless otherwise specified.
Engine: One Wright J65-W-18 axial-flow turbojet, rated at 7400 lb.s.t. dry and 10,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning. Performance: Maximum speed 753 mph at sea level, 727 mph at 35,000 feet. Cruising speed 577 mph. Initial climb rate 5130 feet per minute. Service ceiling 41,900 feet. Normal range 1275 miles. Weights: 14,330 pounds empty, 21,280 pounds loaded, 24,078 pounds maximum. Dimensions: wingspan 31 feet 7 1/2 inches, length 40 feet 10 inches (early production) 46 feet 11 inches (late production), height 12 feet 9 inches (early production) 13 feet 3 inches (late production), wing area 250 square feet. Fuel capacity: 1049 US gallons maximum internal fuel capacity. Two 150-US gallon drop tanks could be carried on underwing pylons, bringing total fuel capacity to 1349 US gallons. Armament: Four 20-mm cannon in the lower edges of the air intakes. Four underwing pylons for external stores. Four AIM-9 Sidewinder infrared-homing air-to-air missiles or two Sidewinders and two 150-US gallon drop tanks could be carried on underwing racks.

[Daryl J.]

USAF Norad-like 'regional' defense fighter.   Neither a true interceptor nor a point defense fighter, the USAF could have used these as an intermediate layer to help clean up anything which had broken through the first line of interceptors, which could have been significant.   Perhaps the RCAF would have had them as well?   

Paint scheme:  Satin white with a bit of dead flat dark green or dark grey here and there to represent the northern winter climes.........

Structural changes to reflect upgraded maneuverability and carrying capacity.



Daryl J.

[Mossie]

The Tiger never had much luck with it's J65's, there were problems with intergration it's promise & performance were let down by lack of reliabilty.  The F11F-1F with a J79 required a lot of changes to the airframe & lost out to the F-104 in the 'deal of the century'.

When I was building my Danish Tiger, Evan mentioned the possibility of the Avon.  This would have fit the airframe without major changes & later developments as fitted to the Lightning & Draken obtained similar thrust to the J79.  A smaller, lighter aircraft with similar power output to the F-104 may have been a world beater.

You could have a licence built engine, or maybe Commonwealth customers building their own Tigers with British engines.  One of my ideas for a RAF Tiger would have seen cancellation of the Lightning & the British buying US.  Instead of the F-104, they bought Tigers fitted with RR Avons, licence built by Hawkers.  No reason it couldn't fill a ground attack role & HSA would have access to markets that the Grumman wouldn't, maybe it could have rivlled the Starfighter?

[Mossie]

I've found an article that backs up my earlier post about the Super Tiger & the Avon.  West Germany was offered a version of the Tiger with the RA.24 Avon, with a later option for substituting them with the more powerful RB.133 version that never materialsed.  I wonder if Grumman had pushed this further, would we have seen the Tiger replacing the F-104 in the sale of the century?  Would this aircraft have been so improved over the Starfighter that the shenanigans by Lockheed would have been difficult to cover?
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1958/1958%20-%200128.html

[jcf]

I've found an article that backs up my earlier post about the Super Tiger & the Avon.  West Germany was offered a version of the Tiger with the RA.24 Avon, with a later option for substituting them with the more powerful RB.133 version that never materialsed.  I wonder if Grumman had pushed this further, would we have seen the Tiger replacing the F-104 in the sale of the century?  Would this aircraft have been so improved over the Starfighter that the shenanigans by Lockheed would have been difficult to cover?
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1958/1958%20-%200128.html

More likely Grumman would simply have taken Lockheed's place in the 'shenanigans'. The F-104 bribery scandals required players on both sides of the purchase as evidently a number of the 'requests for compensation' or simple extortion if you prefer, originated with the customers. Lockheed was not the sole guilty party.

Jon

[Mossie]

Oh, it takes two to tango!  Lockheed couldn't have done it if officials (or even whole governments) weren't open to it.  I'm not getting too deep into that, except to say that it happened as it tends to fire people up. 

I guess what I'm really asking is, would the addition of an Avon &/or RB.133 have made an aircraft that was an order of magnitude better than the F-104?  The addition of the J79 to the F11F-1F required a redesign of the whole rear of the aircraft & added some weight.  The Avon would have been fairly compatible with the F11F due to the use of the J65 which was based on the Sapphire & very close in size to the Avon.  No need to redesign the aircraft structure & a lighter engine for similar thrust would have made things much easier for Grumman.  The only reason I mentioned 'shennaigans', is that if the F11F-1F had been fitted with an Avon, would it be so good enough over the F-104 to make it difficult to reccomend the Starfighter?

[Daryl J.]

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That stuff above is excellent fodder!   I just ordered two short-nosed Lindberg F-11 Tigers for the sake of converting into European service machines before finding this thread.   Thanks for the info!   I'll just have to see what the kits are like before starting and take it from there.     One version is proposed to be an all white, stretched,short nosed recon. machine (?Eye of the Tiger?   Spyger?).   The other a designated ground attack machine that somewhere has to have a warm green and elsewhere an orange (German?  Swedish?).       Do Quickboost make a nozzel for the Draken that would fit this app?


Daryl J.

[sotoolslinger]

OK Daryl now you can give me a hat  What is a Quickboost

[jcf]

OK Daryl now you can give me a hat  What is a Quickboost

Aftermarket accessories:
http://www.quickboost.net/catalogue.htm

[Mossie]

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That stuff above is excellent fodder!   I just ordered two short-nosed Lindberg F-11 Tigers for the sake of converting into European service machines before finding this thread.   Thanks for the info!   I'll just have to see what the kits are like before starting and take it from there.     One version is an all white, stretched,
short nosed recon. machine (?Eye of the Tiger?   Spyger?).   The other a designated ground attack machine that somewhere has to have a warm green and elsewhere an orange (German?  Swedish?).       Do Quickboost make a nozzel for the Draken that would fit this app?


Daryl J.

Your welcome!  I guess you could do the F-11 in any F-104 operators colours if you assume it won the 'sale of the century'.

Aires do a nozzle for the Draken.  They also do them for the EE Lightning, if your doing two it'd work out slightly cheaper.
http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=AIRE4378
http://www.hannants.co.uk/search/?FULL=AIRE4318

[sotoolslinger]

Wow cool stuff Thanks

[MAD]

Has anyone got a 3-view drawing of the more powerful and more capable J79 powered F11F-2(?) Super Tiger?


M.A.D

[Mossie]

There are several on Secret Projects:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,455.0/highlight,f11f-1f.html

[Daryl J.]

Would stuffing a downrated J79 into the G-98 prototype require significant external changes?    The Hasegawa nozzle fits into the back of Lindberg's G-98 rather well, thus the question.   As much as I like the the Super Tiger, the  early prototype is beautiful in its own right and wouldn't mind giving it some more snort.   The Draken nozzle was out of stock.

TIA,
Daryl J.

[Mossie]

I've had a much closer look at this after Johns statement in another thread.  The short answer is yes.

The long answer is that I scaled drawings of the F-104, F11F, Draken & Lightning & compared the nozzles.  They were all of very similar diameter.  However, the F11F-1 is much shorter aircraft.  To incorporate the engine, (I'm making an educated guess here), the fuel tanks had to be moved, hence the fatter fuselage.  So to fit the J79 or afterburning Avon, the structure of the F11F needs to be widened (as in the Super Tiger) or lengthened.  The other option is conformal tanks.