What if the USSR hadn't 'interned' the B-29?

[famvburg]

   Some of my fav a/c are the B-29 & its illigitimate sibling, the Tu-4. What fascinates me more is the Tu-4 lineage all the way thru to the Tu-20/-95. So, suppose instead of B-29s, say the USSR got their hands on a B-24. A B-17? I know Stalin wanted both or either & I've seen a drawing of a B-24 in USSR camo & markings, but I think it was just a WhIf profile. How 'bout maybe a Stirling or a Lanc? The catch to this is, Tupolev would have developed this alternate design into its Tu-20 extrapolation. Maybe the B-17 would have still led to the Bear as we know it, their stepping stone still being a B-29 look-a-like. I think I could see the Lanc following a similar path as in the UK, to the Lincoln & Shackleton. A B-24 would have worked its way thru a B-32 - like design. So, whatcha think? A B-52 sized, swept-wing & tail turboprop thing that looks related to a B-24? Maybe swept twin tails, kinda like the An-225. Or the same treatment with the Shack? Hmm, the slab sides of the B-52 along with its wings may be a good basis for an extrapolation of a B-24/B-32 or a Shack.......... IIRC, the Bear's fuselage diameter is the same or not much bigger than the B-29/Tu-4. Maybe keep on stretching a B-24 or Lanc & then sweep everything. I guess the same could be asked about what if the USSR got hold of a German bomber, like the He 177 or a Junkers 290 or ........ I imagine that would have pretty much followed Germany's own extrapolation proposals to an extent.

[Arc3371]

The Soviets used both B-17 & B-24s salvaged from damaged aircraft that landed in Soviet controlled areas. The B-17 called Swallow in soviet service.

[Archibald]

Seems that another way for the Soviets to have a strategic bomber would be a massive upgrade of the Pe-8. In fact it seems there was an advanced project which was killed by the Tu-4...

[upnorth]

The Soviets had at least one Lancaster to play with. I think they grafted a different nose onto it.

[jcf]

Seems that another way for the Soviets to have a strategic bomber would be a massive upgrade of the Pe-8. In fact it seems there was an advanced project which was killed by the Tu-4...

Indeed, the Tupolev Type 64.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3409.0/highlight,tupolev+64.html

Jon

[jcf]

So, whatcha think? A B-52 sized, swept-wing & tail turboprop thing that looks related to a B-24?

Ya mean like a YB-60 with turbo-props?
Which is how the production version would have been powered.



JCF

[GTX]

How 'bout maybe a Stirling

I believe they also had a Stirling or two.

Regards,

Greg

[Archibald]

Yes the soviets had both British bombers - more or less rebuild from crashed airframes. There was an article in Le Fana de l'Aviation magazine some months ago on the subject with crappy photos.
Think they had a single Stirling and two Lancs, one of the two was used as transport aircraft.

[famvburg]

       I had considered that, but the Pe-8 was 'homegrown'. I recall the Pe-8/B-29/Tu-4 crossbreed posted here, Ant-53, IIRC. There were actually 3 different Tupolev 64 designs. The one with the bubble canopies, one that looked a lot like a twin tailed, vee-engined B-29 (the 66 was a planned transport version of that one) & the last one, similar to the second mentioned version but with a DC-3 or DC-4 - like nose & was claimed to be the ultimate 64, using technology from the B-29s. Another 'B-29 clone' was by Myasischev, the DVB-202, whick looked a lot like a high wing B-29. IMHO, it looked more like a B-29 than did the middle 64, mainly due to its radial engines & big single tail, even tho it was a high wing design. AFAIK, it never used any B-29 technology & it was further developed into the DVB-302 & later, into a larger 6 engined bomber proposal.

Seems that another way for the Soviets to have a strategic bomber would be a massive upgrade of the Pe-8. In fact it seems there was an advanced project which was killed by the Tu-4...

Indeed, the Tupolev Type 64.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3409.0/highlight,tupolev+64.html

Jon

[jcf]

       I had considered that, but the Pe-8 was 'homegrown'. I recall the Pe-8/B-29/Tu-4 crossbreed posted here, Ant-53, IIRC. There were actually 3 different Tupolev 64 designs. The one with the bubble canopies, one that looked a lot like a twin tailed, vee-engined B-29 (the 66 was a planned transport version of that one) & the last one, similar to the second mentioned version but with a DC-3 or DC-4 - like nose & was claimed to be the ultimate 64, using technology from the B-29s. Another 'B-29 clone' was by Myasischev, the DVB-202, whick looked a lot like a high wing B-29. IMHO, it looked more like a B-29 than did the middle 64, mainly due to its radial engines & big single tail, even tho it was a high wing design. AFAIK, it never used any B-29 technology & it was further developed into the DVB-302 & later, into a larger 6 engined bomber proposal.

The Type 64 was as much 'homegrown' as the Ant-42/TB-7/Pe-8, seeing as design began long before they had a B-29 to look at, later incorporation of some B-29 technology and features doesn't make it any less Russian. The Ant-42 central supercharger system was, according to Tupolev, the result of reading a paper by Frank Whittle, but that doesn't make it a foreign design..

The 66 transport bore some similarities to a design from 1935, the Ant-53 which looks like a cross between a B-29 and 307 Stratoliner yet pre-dates both. This design was revisited in 1944 by Nezval in the form of the Pe-8 based Ant-53 II, which predates the assignment to B-29/Tu-4 work.

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1737.msg14624.html#msg14624

Here is What-If for ya:
Howzabout Stalin leaves the aircraft designers/manufacturers and engine builders alone and they are able to properly develop the Ant-42?
Seeing as development started in 1934 with the first flight in 1935, if left alone they would probably have had large numbers of a very effective heavy bomber in squadron service by 1941. Who knows they may also have had an improved and advanced aircraft ready to go.

No need to duplicate the B-17 -> Y1B-20 -> B-29  or B-24 -> B-32 -> B-36 -> B-60 evolutionary paths.

Jon

BTW I also own Buttler & Gordon's 'Soviet Secret Projects: Bombers since 1945' along with Gunston's 'Tupolev Aircraft since 1922'.

[Madoc]

Famv & all,

I think this WhatIf? would be simpler with the assumption that the Soviets simply weren't able to get their hands on B-29's, period.  That no USAAC aircrew considered the Soviet Union a viable place to even attempt landing.  Thus, the Soviets would never have had the option of not examining the birds to begin with.  And thus they'd be stuck doing the home-grown and foreign "open source" gleaning.

They had a number of promising designs and long range aviation in Russia was always in vogue simply due to the need of getting around within their own lands.

It woulda been mighty interesting to see what the Reds could cook up without any "Bulls" to start the herd with.

Madoc

[GTX]

Another twist - what if the Soviets tried developing some of the German long range concepts/developments - e.g. Ju-390 or Me-264 etc.  Take that line of development through to modern day?

Regards,

Greg

[jcf]

Another twist - what if the Soviets tried developing some of the German long range concepts/developments - e.g. Ju-390 or Me-264 etc.  Take that line of development through to modern day?

Regards,

Greg

Why would they have bothered? The Russians had far more experience building large, long-range aircraft than any German manufacturer.

Contrary to what seems to be popular belief, Nazi Germany was not he be-all and end-all of aeronautical technology
The Me 264 project for one was a pathetic joke and probalby the most over-hyped of the Vunderveapons.

Jon

[famvburg]

     Well, considering my WhIf was not for a homegrown version, that's a different subject. However, I would assume that had the B-29s not landed in the USSR, Tupolev would have developed its 64, & IMHO, would have followed the same path of the Tu-4, the Tu-80 & -85 & on thru the -95. Maybe the homegrown Tu-95, developed from the Tu-64, not Tu-4, would be similar to the Bear as we know it, but maybe have twin swept fins rather than a single. I could see the Tu-80 & -85 looking as we know them, except twin fins & possibly, at least for the -80, more developed liquid-cooled vees. I can see where Myasischev, tho not copying the B-29 but the fact the 202 resembled it quite a lot, could have followed the development path to the Mya-4 Bison as we know it. Ilyushin also had a 6 engined proposal, the Il-26, IIRC, that again, IIRC, was claimed to use B-29 technology & I think it looked similar to the unbuilt Japanese bomber, the G10N1. Iknow there's a side view of an 'advanced Pe-8' around here, so I think it likely that the Pe-8 could have gone the same route, but I think its design was limited & I don't think the USSR would have needed that many different types.

Famv & all,

I think this WhatIf? would be simpler with the assumption that the Soviets simply weren't able to get their hands on B-29's, period.  That no USAAC aircrew considered the Soviet Union a viable place to even attempt landing.  Thus, the Soviets would never have had the option of not examining the birds to begin with.  And thus they'd be stuck doing the home-grown and foreign "open source" gleaning.

They had a number of promising designs and long range aviation in Russia was always in vogue simply due to the need of getting around within their own lands.

It woulda been mighty interesting to see what the Reds could cook up without any "Bulls" to start the herd with.

Madoc