Chinook HC.3's to be converted back to HC.2's.....

[Mossie]

Latest chapter in the ongoing Chinook HC.3 saga.  QinetiQ have been subcontracted by Boeing for most of the work to convert the eight Chinook HC.3's back to 'HC.2/2A standard'.  The first will be operational in 2009 & it'll cost around £90 million to do the lot.  The phrase 'arse about face' comes to mind.  I guess the HC.3 designation will stick, as there will be some differences to the HC.2/2A fleet & part of the flight testing will be to check if the 'fat tanks' are still compatible with the mods.

So, get buying up those Revell HC.3 kits, it's a whiff now!

[B777LR]

So whats the point of downgrading the HC-3s, when they could just as well upgrade the HC-2s?

[Nick]

I think the HC.3 work was deemed to be unflyable becasue they installed a mix of analogue and digital controls and couldn't get the software approved to have the machines approved for service use. A UK Govt review deemed the work like this:

as one of the most incompetent procurements of all time

It was to be a cheap version of the MH-47E special forces helo. The US Army refused to buy them from us after inspection in 2003. They cost us £259million in 1998 and are still not in use. These 8 machines will have cost us £360million by the time they enter service.

That's £45,000,000 each for a machine that should only cost £20,000,000 when new and we're getting a less capable version.

[Mossie]

There seems to be some sort of curse with the RAF & the Chinook.  The Chinook was looked at in the 60's & 70's when it could have been licence built by Westland & rejected only to be bought direct from Boeing Vertol in the early 80's.  They liked the Chinook when it came along, but when they upgraded to HC.2 standard there were some serious problems leading to several crashes.  Although it's officially down to pilot error, many belive the 1994 Mull of Kintyre disaster was down to problems with the HC.2.  Four crew & twenty five high ranking intelligence officers were killed in the crash.  And now the procurement problems with the HC.3.

[Shasper]

This seems to be a trend in the Commonwealth's military procurement, instead of getting exactly what's wanted a compromise that is supposetly cheaper/better/whatever other reasoning may be comes along only to end up costing uber more than the original item in question (Nimrod AEW.3 instead of the E-3, Chinook HC.3 instead of MH-47D/E/G).

Not bashing the MoD per se, but seeing as I'm a "uncivilized Yank" I guess I just dont fully grasp the British mentality.


Shas

[Mossie]

I don't think us Brits tend to get it either Shas.  I think part of the problem is the fact that MoD seems to have very little to with the military & is more an arm of the Government.  In the US it seems that military is at the heart of procurement.  In the UK it's civil servants & politicians making most of the decisions & the Armed Forces can only really advise on their requirements.  The same kind of thing happens at my work, the people at the top think they know what the person at bottom needs.  They don't, & then they hold their hands in the air & blame everyone else when things go wrong.

[B777LR]

Not bashing the MoD per se, but seeing as I'm a "uncivilized Yank" I guess I just dont fully grasp the British mentality.

Dont worry about that, im Danish, yet i dont understand the mentality of the RDAF...
UAVs didnt work. We then sold `em to canada, and they work there! Still, the AF says the Canadians cant make them work either... (despite all of the media saying otherwise )

EH-101s wont work, and the AF is blaming Westland. It has turned out the AF has turned down an offer by Westland, to maintain them. The RDAF prefered maintaining the EH-101s with far from adequate equipment/personel. It is still Westlands fault... 

Finally the CL-604s that patrol the Danish waters. The search radars cannot spot oil on the water. I am still waiting to see what mistake the AF has made this time...

[Martin H]

Mossie has hit the nail on the head, its the faceless civil servents who have no idea of the real world out side of white hall who make the call when it comes to what the MOD buget is spent on.
The HC-3 saga is just the latest in a very very long line of such screw ups (affecting all 3 services). Yet it turns out that more of the Defence buget is spent keeping the civil servents happy (pay rises, performance bonuses, luxeries at the office and gold plated pensions ect ect ect) than giving our boys on the front line what they NEED to do the job the idiots in downing street send them to do. To me the behavior of the civil service within the MOD is nothing short of treason, lining their own pockets and pensions while our troops are under equiped and in some places under fed. (any one notice the footage of Prince Harry eating a US army MRE? Rather than a UK Rat pack)

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

Looking forward to 2012 when the SAR helos are to be replaced....... wonder how they're gonna scr*w-up that one..... Ideas anybody ??

Edit:- Hey here's a thought, bear-in-mind the title of this thread, perhaps they'll bring the Whirlwinds out of the museums and give them carbon-fibre rotorblades and Play Station hand-contollers instead of cyclic/co-axial inputs....

Ian

[Mossie]

They Sea Kings will soon be forty years old, along with the Puma.  Neither have had any major update in their lifetimes & I can only guess at the serviceability.  Both have served well but are in desperate need of replacement & should have been upgraded twenty years ago.  The Puma especially is currently being used way beyond it's capabilites.

[B777LR]

They Sea Kings will soon be forty years old, along with the Puma.  Neither have had any major update in their lifetimes & I can only guess at the serviceability. 

Same for the 43 year old RDAF cousins. They are due to be replaced from next year, but the AF f*cked up the EH-101 maintenance, so i doubt they will be gone by then... (very nice when they come roaring over my house though, almost like a spitfire! )

[kitnut617]

The British Government doesn't have a monopoly on dumb-a#ss decisions Simon/Ian/Martin, there's quite a few numpties over here too.  The latest one is the new procurement of the navy' new helicopter, a Sikorsky something or other which no other self respecting military arm will have anything to do with, yet those who think they know best have decided that's what the navy is going to get.  At best it's another 'off-the-shelf' civilian helicopter which is being made to do military work, same as the Bell CH-146 Griffon and the CH-149 Cormorant (they lucked out with this one though)

Robert

[Mossie]

Not to mention the RAN's decision to go with Seasprites.  They're being scrapped after only a few years service & without any of them being operational.

[Shasper]

I almost mentioned the Seasprites. . . Still, I find it odd that the Canucks are using both the EH-101 AND the S-92.

Shas

[kitnut617]

Still, I find it odd that the Canucks are using both the EH-101 AND the S-92.

Shas

They don't have the S-92 yet, but I'm afraid this type of subject does involve politics and an out going government signed the agreement days before being ousted.