BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk

[Mossie]

Some Hawk proposals from Secret Projects:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hawk-2000.13008/#post-170599

P.1225-1(longer wings an' all that...)
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P.1225-2 with underslung intake:
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Standard Hawk T-45 proposed to the USAF as a T-38 replacement off.  IIRC the T-45B was a standard Hawk proposed to that was nearly bought as a land based trainer.
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Supersonic Hawk variant proposed to South Korea:
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[Mossie]

BAE/Northrop Grumman AJTS early proposal for the T-X competition:
https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20130912005839/en/Rolls-Royce-Joins-BAE-Systems%E2%80%99-Hawk-AJTS-Team-to-Pursue-U.S.-Air-Force-T-X-Contract

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[NARSES2]

Are these ideas for the Airfix starter set you picked up Mossie ? 

[Mossie]

Yep.  I want to do something quick and easy to kick my  mojo into gear, so that USAF Hawk is looking tasty.

Anybody aware of any other potential operators for the Hawk that didn't come through?

[Weaver]

Don't know if there's anything real world to back most of these up, but some thoughts on what-if Hawk exports:

Egypt:
They bought (and built) Alpha Jets in real life, but the Hawk must surely have been offered in competition. There were all sorts of proposals for British arms exports to Egypt in the late 1970s/early 1980s, some of which went through (Swingfire, Westland Commando, new Vosper missile boats+Vosper-led rebuilds of Komars) and some of which didn't (Country class destroyers rebuilt as DDHs with 6 x Lynx...   ). In 2000, Egypt was reportedly looking into replacing it's Alpha Jet fleet and the Hawk was one of the contenders.

Iran (pre-'70):
Pretty much ditto Egypt. Everyone, very much including the UK, was falling over themselves to sell the Shah arms in the 1970s.

Ecuador:
Well we managed to sell them Jaguars in the 1980s, so the Hawk had to be on the cards as a T-33 replacement.

Nigeria:
Ditto Ecuador. They bought L-39s and Alpha Jets in the mid-'80s but since we sold them Jags, the Hawk had to be in the running.

Replace the C-101:
The Spanish C-101 Aviojet is basically a straight-wing Hawk and hasn't had much export success: just Chile, Jordan and Honduras. The Chilean and Jordanian orders could easily have gone to the Hawk, since the UK has had historic defence relationships woth both countries. Indeed, you might even imagine the Spanish government deciding not to develop the C-101 at all and instead opting to have CASA build Hawks under licence for the Spanish Air Force.

Brunei:
Brunei has apparently considered buying a small fleet of Hawks several times since they became responsible for their own defence in 1984, but these schemes have always been postponed.

[DogfighterZen]

How about the Portuguese? They got the Alpha Jets in 1993 but in my whiff scenario, i had them buy the Hawk T.1 in the early 80s to replace the T-33 and in the early 90s buy some Hawk 100 series airframes to complement the T.1s with more advanced weapons training capability..
Already built the T.1 in a commemorative scheme of the PoAF's 50th birthday used in real life on a T-6... 



Still 3 more in the stash, 2 kits of the 100 series for the ones bought in the 90s and a 200, still to be placed in my whiff scenario's time line.

[Mossie]

I like that. 

I've had some ideas of my own:

Iraq:
Real world proposal mid-80's.  This carried on for some years,  eventually fears of getting caught up politically with the Iran-Iraq war and fears of them being used against Iraqi Kurds put an end to it.

Japan:
Instead of the indigenous T-4.

Republic of China:
Taiwanese Hawks instead of the AT-3. 

USAF:
As above, proposal made for the standard land based Hawk of the back of the McD-D T-45 deal. Later Hawk 100 based proposal for the T-X competition with Northrop Grumman who eventually offered a clean sheet design.

USN:
The T-45B was proposed as a standard Hawk land based variant.  Must have been fairly serious to get a designation.

Netherlands:
I can't think of a dedicated advanced trainer that the Netherlands air force had in this time.

Harold hit on a couple of South American ideas that might be worth exploring.  Going slightly north into Central America, the RAF had a presence in Belize with a Harrier flight for some time.  What if the UK had supplemented the BDF with modest equipment instead, surreptitiously crewed by RAF pilots at first until Belize had a well trained small but modern air wing? A few Hawks, along with

Brazil:
Say the AMX deal didn't work out, maybe Embraer could have built Hawks as a sweetener to the Tucano deal.

[DogfighterZen]

I like that. 

I've had some ideas of my own:

Iraq:
Real world proposal mid-80's.  This carried on for some years,  eventually fears of getting caught up politically with the Iran-Iraq war and fears of them being used against Iraqi Kurds put an end to it.

Japan:
Instead of the indigenous T-4.

Republic of China:
Taiwanese Hawks instead of the AT-3. 

USAF:
As above, proposal made for the standard land based Hawk of the back of the McD-D T-45 deal. Later Hawk 100 based proposal for the T-X competition with Northrop Grumman who eventually offered a clean sheet design.

USN:
The T-45B was proposed as a standard Hawk land based variant.  Must have been fairly serious to get a designation.

Netherlands:
I can't think of a dedicated advanced trainer that the Netherlands air force had in this time.

Harold hit on a couple of South American ideas that might be worth exploring.  Going slightly north into Central America, the RAF had a presence in Belize with a Harrier flight for some time.  What if the UK had supplemented the BDF with modest equipment instead, surreptitiously crewed by RAF pilots at first until Belize had a well trained small but modern air wing? A few Hawks, along with

Brazil:
Say the AMX deal didn't work out, maybe Embraer could have built Hawks as a sweetener to the Tucano deal.

I was intrigued by the fact that the Netherlands didn't have an advanced trainer but then i remembered that the Portuguese started using the F-16B for the advanced trainer role when they retired the AJ in 2018. Now there's only the Socata TB-30 Epsilon as basic trainer and then they move directly to the twin seat Vipers.
I imagine that the Dutch had the PC-7 for basic trainer and then used the F-16B for the advanced trainer role after the pilots had some simulator time under their belt but that's just an uneducated guess. The Hawk seems like a good choice for a cool Dutch whif.

[Weaver]

The Dutch and many other NATO air forces do their training out-of-country, either in the USA or Canada under joint NATO programmes using US or Canadian-owned aircraft.
Reasons are that small forces can't justify the overheads of maintaining a flying training school, plus congested airspace in Europe makes realistic training difficult anyway.

The US programme (which the Dutch use) is ENJJPT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/80th_Flying_Training_Wing
https://www.sheppard.af.mil/Library/Fact-Sheets/Display/Article/367537/euro-nato-joint-jet-pilot-training-program-enjjpt/

The Canadian programme is NFTC: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_Flying_Training_in_Canada

Both programmes use T-6 Texan IIs (PC-9s) for basic. The US one uses T-38s for advanced, the Canadian one uses Hawks.

[ysi_maniac]

Some Hawk proposals from Secret Projects:
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/hawk-2000.13008/#post-170599

P.1225-1(longer wings an' all that...)
You cannot view this attachment.

P.1225-2 with underslung intake:
You cannot view this attachment.

Standard Hawk T-45 proposed to the USAF as a T-38 replacement off.  IIRC the T-45B was a standard Hawk proposed to that was nearly bought as a land based trainer.
You cannot view this attachment.

Supersonic Hawk variant proposed to South Korea:
You cannot view this attachment.

More beautiful proposals than the RW results 

[Captain Canada]

All of the Hawks in Canada, the NATO Flyng Training ones, as well as those of 417 Squadron RCAF, have been grounded. They were flown from Moose Jaw, SK to Collingwood, ON, and then towed to CFB Borden. They will replace the aging Tutors as training aids.

[PR19_Kit]

All of the Hawks in Canada, the NATO Flyng Training ones, as well as those of 417 Squadron RCAF, have been grounded.

Why?

[Gondor]

All of the Hawks in Canada, the NATO Flyng Training ones, as well as those of 417 Squadron RCAF, have been grounded.

Why?

This I think

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2024/05/new-life-for-ct-155-hawk.html

Gondor

[kerick]

So cancel the only trainer you have with no replacement in sight. Good thinking. You know this new trainer will take forever and a day to decide on! So to save money they will blow money sending student pilots around the world to get trained.

[PR19_Kit]

And if they send their pilots to the UK for training, what will they train on?

Hawks.........................