Machine Guns and Cannons (Ground, Vehicle, and Aircraft Mounted Weapons)

[scooter]

You do need a handier weapon but one that is still powerful enough to knock down anybody but the best armoured opponent IMO. 

Indeed.  Which is why I added the .45ACP Thompson.  No one gets up after that round hits 'em.  There was some discussion in Army Times, and the various Military Times publications, about the M9 being retired and replaced with a .45 pistol when the Iraq Invasion kicked off

[rickshaw]

You do need a handier weapon but one that is still powerful enough to knock down anybody but the best armoured opponent IMO.  

Indeed.  Which is why I added the .45ACP Thompson.  No one gets up after that round hits 'em.  There was some discussion in Army Times, and the various Military Times publications, about the M9 being retired and replaced with a .45 pistol when the Iraq Invasion kicked off

I've never quite understood the American fascination with pistols.  Everywhere else, they've pretty much been abandoned, except as status symbols in the military (ie given to Officers and MPs who feel the need to impress their authority on the rest of the soldiery).  On the battlefield they're pretty useless, hence the move towards the new class of Personal Defence Weapons (PDW), which are essentially short SMGs.   It seems to be a cultural thing.  Bit like Tomahawks.  Very American.  

I've often thought though, if you need a weapon that both impresses and is semi-effective for security duties, you can't go past a good pump-action shotgun firing large shot.  You don't need to be too accurate and it makes a mess of what ever it hits.  It's highly visible as well so it impresses your authority on a situation.   Most of the PDWs are too short and have too high a rate of fire to be accurate IMHO.  Hence my preference for a good carbine.  M1/M2 anyone?

[Weaver]

I've often thought though, if you need a weapon that both impresses and is semi-effective for security duties, you can't go past a good pump-action shotgun firing large shot.  You don't need to be too accurate and it makes a mess of what ever it hits.  It's highly visible as well so it impresses your authority on a situation.   Most of the PDWs are too short and have too high a rate of fire to be accurate IMHO.  Hence my preference for a good carbine.  M1/M2 anyone?

There's a variety of pump-guns around now that feed from two parallel magazines with a switch and a variety of feed modes. Always thought they'd be good for security/policing: non-lethal rounds in one side, lethal rounds in the other (or "plan-changers" and "life changers".... ).

[scooter]

You do need a handier weapon but one that is still powerful enough to knock down anybody but the best armoured opponent IMO. 

Indeed.  Which is why I added the .45ACP Thompson.  No one gets up after that round hits 'em.

A Thompson that looks something like this was what I was thinking-

Folding stock, ambidextrous safety/selector, Picatinny/Weaver rail system for a CQB optic, like the ACOG (Adv. Combat Optical Gunsight) shown and front pistol grip.

And we consider pistols as a last ditch, close-in weapon.  Or when our primary weapon jams and it isn't a quick clear.

[Old Wombat]

Why not just go for a folding-stock H&K UMP, they come standard in 3 calibres?

(UMP45 - .45 ACP; UMP40 - .40 S&W; UMP9 - 9mmx19 Parabellum)

[Weaver]

And of course, Austalia developed the F1 SMG from the Sterling, by rotating it's magazine to the vertical position, (as per the Owen Gun) fitting it with the grip and trigger group from the SLR, and giving it a straight-through stock and raised sights.

No, the F1 SMG was not developed from the Sterling.  It was developed completely independently and while it looked superficially similar was a completely different gun.  The only thing it shared with the Sterling was the magazine, which was exactly the same to allow a degree of commonality.  The F1 was pretty unique and had perhaps the strongest safety catch in any SMG - it was a modified L1a1 rifle one and came complete with the pistol grip which was taken lock, stock and barrel (more of less) from the L1a1, as was the butt....

....The bolt had helical grooves in it to help clear any mud/obstructions which might have got in. 

Sorry, my mistake. I'd read of some connection between them but got the impression that it was stronger than it really was. The only definite shared component was the magazine. Some sources claim that the bayonet was the same too, but other claim the F1 bayonet was the same as the SLR's. Since both were derived from the SLR bayonet, I suspect the former view is a misunderstanding.

The Sterling also had helical grooves in it's bolt, so it may be that the F1 copied the idea, if not the actual component. I can't find a good pic of the F1's bolt, but I did find a drawing of it that suggests it's similar to the Sterling's, but not identical.

[rickshaw]

The F1's bayonet was the same as the L1a1's.  I am unsure whom had the bolt grooves first but it may be that the F1 did copy them from the Sterling (IIRC the Patchett didn't have them).

[zenrat]

Was Schrage Musik only used on night fighters ?...

I recall reading something similar (but obviously firing downwards) for anti tank use.
Vertically mounted rockets in the rear fuselage of (IIRC) an Hs-129 that were triggered automatically when the plane flew over a large metal object like a tank.

[pyro-manic]

There's a variety of pump-guns around now that feed from two parallel magazines with a switch and a variety of feed modes. Always thought they'd be good for security/policing: non-lethal rounds in one side, lethal rounds in the other (or "plan-changers" and "life changers".... ).

I'm not convinced that's a great idea. I suspect you'd get a lot of "incidents" where the aim/order was to beanbag someone into submission, but instead they got a chest-full of buckshot.

I didn't think .45 was much cop at penetrating armour either? Big fat slow bullet.

Re. downward-firing Schrage-musik, I seem to recall reading about a project (possibly Japanese?) where a big aircraft (a medium bomber or transport, I think) had a massive array of rifle-calibre machine guns fitted in the belly, firing downwards. The idea being to fly over eg. a beach landing, and shooting up the troops getting off the landing craft...?

[Weaver]

The F1's bayonet was the same as the L1a1's.  I am unsure whom had the bolt grooves first but it may be that the F1 did copy them from the Sterling (IIRC the Patchett didn't have them).

The Patchett did have the grooves according to what I was reading last night.

The Sterling bayonet was the SLR bayonet with a wider diameter ring on it. Looking at the way the bayonet attaches on the F1, I think they probably made it use the standard SLR one.

[scooter]

I didn't think .45 was much cop at penetrating armour either? Big fat slow bullet.

True, but considering most irregular fighters (AQ, Taliban, ISIL, etc.) don't wear armor, its more an issue of putting them down, and keeping them down.  Particularly in the narrow confines of urban warfare.

[ChernayaAkula]

A Thompson that looks something like this was what I was thinking-

Folding stock, ambidextrous safety/selector, Picatinny/Weaver rail system for a CQB optic, like the ACOG (Adv. Combat Optical Gunsight) shown and front pistol grip. <....>

That looks cool! 

<...>
Re. downward-firing Schrage-musik, I seem to recall reading about a project (possibly Japanese?) where a big aircraft (a medium bomber or transport, I think) had a massive array of rifle-calibre machine guns fitted in the belly, firing downwards. The idea being to fly over eg. a beach landing, and shooting up the troops getting off the landing craft...?

Don't know about the Japanese, but here's this Soviet thing cramming no less than 88 (!) PPSh-41 SMGs into the bomb bay of a Tu-2 medium bomber. 

[Weaver]

A Thompson that looks something like this was what I was thinking-

Folding stock, ambidextrous safety/selector, Picatinny/Weaver rail system for a CQB optic, like the ACOG (Adv. Combat Optical Gunsight) shown and front pistol grip. <....>

That looks cool!  

Agreed. One of the weird things that's happened is that as technology's advanced, many of the mass-production arguments in favor of pressed steel and against machined castings have fallen away due to the availability of CNC machining. The Thompson, once rejected as too difficult and expensive to mass produce, could probably be made just as cheaply as any other gun today.

Don't know about the Japanese, but here's this Soviet thing cramming no less than 88 (!) PPSh-41 SMGs into the bomb bay of a Tu-2 medium bomber.  

Wow - firing around 80,000 7.62 x 25mm pistol rounds per minute, it's a toss up whether that thing would kill you by penetration or erosion.....

[PR19_Kit]

Don't know about the Japanese, but here's this Soviet thing cramming no less than 88 (!) PPSh-41 SMGs into the bomb bay of a Tu-2 medium bomber. 

That'll be the VTOL version then? 

[jcf]

Was Schrage Musik only used on night fighters ?...

I recall reading something similar (but obviously firing downwards) for anti tank use.
Vertically mounted rockets in the rear fuselage of (IIRC) an Hs-129 that were triggered automatically when the plane flew over a large metal object like a tank.

One of the systems was the SG113, shown on page 1 of the thread:
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,19887.msg227217.html#msg227217

There were similar multi-barrel systems using 30mm MK108 rounds for air-to-air (forward or vertical firing)
and air-to-ground.