Grumman TBF and General Motors TBM Avenger

[SinUnNombre]

Hey all. I recently got the old Airfix Avenger Mk1 for the Dead Parrot GB, and I was trying to think of a decent plan of action before cutting it up too bad. Then I started wondering how the plane would perform in the COIN role. The turret and ventral guns definitely show that it has potential. Also, the rather large bomb bay that can hold 2,000lbs of bombs also shows promise. I'm thinking of scrathbuilding some Hispano 20mikes for the wings, and adding another .50cal to the turret. What do you guys think about that? Also, I was thinking of opening the bomb bay doors and putting the two HUGE bombs from an Airfix Skyraider in there. Thoughts? For markings, I was thinking either US in Korea or France in Indo China. I'd like to paint it in SEA camo for the US in Vietnam, but with all the AEW and ASW patrols hours postwar, I don't think the airframes would've lasted that long without major overhaul or modification. What do you guys think?All thoughts are welcomed.

Jon

[Leigh]

Hey look what I found in my new book. Any help?

[Sentinel Chicken]

The turret would probably be of little tactical use in the COIN role. You might consider going with what was done with the FTBF- this was a single seat version of the TBF Avenger:

[Son of Damian]

Cool!

Though I think you should lose the rear turret and fill in the after canopy part in a similar fashion to the Avenger Fire Bombers. Put two big bombs in the bomb bay and two more under the wings just out board of the wheel wells. Then put a bunch of rockets, bombs w/ daisy cutter extensions, cluster bombs, napalm tanks or what ever under the wings like a skyraider.    

As to the markings I would go with either France or South Vietnam.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

If you can pull off the conversion as depicted in that image that JP provided, you might want to incorporate the Skyraider canopy and windscreen on the the Avenger and see if you can add the engine and propeller.  More Power!  More Better!

[dogsbody]

Check this out.

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index...showtopic=10802

[SinUnNombre]

The turret would probably be of little tactical use in the COIN role.

I disagree. The way I see it, the planes gonna be flying low and slow on strafe and rocket runs right? Meaning its going to be venerable to enemy fighters coming in from 6 high, so it needs some kind of protection to the aft. At least that's how I see it. Like I said, I was actually comtemplating adding another .50cal to the turret.

I'd honestly like to see this question open into a serious debate. On one hand, you delete the turret and all the weight that frees up can be added in the weapon stores. Also, the single seat "razorback"-style fairing is more aerodynamic and would increase top speed slightly. But, on the other hand, like I said, that leaves you venerable to anything coming from behind you. Hmmm, quite a dilema. I'd like to see everyone else's opinion on this. I do like the pic of the single seater. Kinda looks like a bloated Wildcat. Ugly as hell, but cool nonetheless.

Jon

[Jschmus]

As I recall, the officer who thought up the side-firing pylon turn gunship concept originally concocted the idea right after World War II.  What if you incorporated a side-firing gun battery in the lower fuselage in place of the bomb bay?  Four 20mm cannon would be quite nasty, or 2 20s and a 40mm.

[elmayerle]

I'll second Jeffry on using the Skyraider engine.  The only larger available engine would be a R4360 and I don't think it would be a good fit for that role; cooling the back rows would be especially challenging.

[SinUnNombre]

I'll second Jeffry on using the Skyraider engine.  The only larger available engine would be a R4360 and I don't think it would be a good fit for that role; cooling the back rows would be especially challenging.

I was contemplating using the Skyraider's 3350. The only problem that would pose is that the existing 2600 is molded to the cowling, meaning I'd have to make a VERY careful and straight cut to get it out. Also, Evan, if I swapped in the 3350, could I use the existing exhausts that are also molded to the cowl, or would I have to cut them out and make something else? What about props with this swap? Avenger 3-blade, or Skyraider 4-blade?

Jon

[elmayerle]

I'll second Jeffry on using the Skyraider engine.  The only larger available engine would be a R4360 and I don't think it would be a good fit for that role; cooling the back rows would be especially challenging.

I was contemplating using the Skyraider's 3350. The only problem that would pose is that the existing 2600 is molded to the cowling, meaning I'd have to make a VERY careful and straight cut to get it out. Also, Evan, if I swapped in the 3350, could I use the existing exhausts that are also molded to the cowl, or would I have to cut them out and make something else? What about props with this swap? Avenger 3-blade, or Skyraider 4-blade?

Jon

I'd definitely go with the Skyraider's 4-bladed prop.

As for the engine installation, I'd probably use the basic Skyraider engine and cowl mounted to keep the propeller centerline the same and use bits of the TBF cowl spliced/blended in as necessary to maintain decent lines with the rest of the fuselage.  

[Son of Damian]

(Sentinel Chicken @ Jun 14 2006, 09:44 PM)
The turret would probably be of little tactical use in the COIN role. 

I disagree. The way I see it, the planes gonna be flying low and slow on strafe and rocket runs right? Meaning its going to be venerable to enemy fighters coming in from 6 high, so it needs some kind of protection to the aft.

I don't think there has ever been a counter insurgency campaign were the insurgents had air cover.

[SinUnNombre]

(Sentinel Chicken @ Jun 14 2006, 09:44 PM)
The turret would probably be of little tactical use in the COIN role. 

I disagree. The way I see it, the planes gonna be flying low and slow on strafe and rocket runs right? Meaning its going to be venerable to enemy fighters coming in from 6 high, so it needs some kind of protection to the aft.

I don't think there has ever been a counter insurgency campaign were the insurgents had air cover.

Vietnam. That is the intended conflict for this bird, after all. I know, what I said earlier about airframe hours and major overhauls, but with Jeffery and Evan's suggestion of putting the 3350 engine in would constitute major airframe ovverhaul and modifacation anyway. Although, it does start to lose a hint of plausibility. Seeing as we already had the Skyraider, why would we need to spend the time and money to update the airframe of a 20 year old plane to incorporate the engine of one already in our current inverntory.

Jon

edit: Maybe I should have said CAS in the title instead of COIN.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

DB is on to something here.

Check this out.

That twin machine gun turret on the back end of the Avenger opens up some other possibile WHIF creations.  Perhaps a USAAF version of the Avenger as an attack aircraft similar to the Dauntless, Vengance, & Helldiver that were also procured in limited numbers for use in supporting Army operations.  

In my original remarks regarding the use of the Skyraider engine and propeller, it would be practical for the sake of keeping the original Avenger lines to keep the original cowling which is much larger than the cowling surrounding the Skyraider engine.  This would keep things in perspective and still allow you plenty of room inside of the cowling for the Skyraider engine.  Most definitely keep the idea of using the four blade propeller from the Skyraider or a Corsair.  A lot more horsepower available to turn the larger propeller.

[elmayerle]

Using the existing cowling sounds good.  I didn't have the drawings immediately available to check that.