AW101/EH101

[kitnut617]

The fact is we've yet to see an S-92 and it's nine years and counting since the order was placed.

Well, we did get one. Sort of...

Yes, I should re-phrase that, we got one under/out of-spec intrim CH-148, with all the other intrim CH-148 we were supposed to get,not being delivered.

[rallymodeller]

Coincidentally, tonight's episode of the CBC documentary series "Canada Above And Beyond" focused on SAR and the like, and a large chunk of the program was about the Cormorant.   

They talked about the first real SAR mission -- an 800km round trip sortie in the face of a North Atlantic cyclone to rescue the members of a disabled Finnish cargo ship. They didn't mention that they needed to stop and refuel at Hibernia twice (once on the way out, once on the way back, nice to have a gas station available out there) but it's still an incredible story.

[DarrenP]

would be nice to see RAF air rescue variant in yellow or a RAF "Royal Flight" variant recycled from HC3/HC3a and New Build HU5 and AEW4 variants.

[PR19_Kit]

There was an item on our local news, South West UK, today about the retirement of the FAA Sea Kings and their replacement by '.....three engined Merlin helicopters transferred from the RAF'.

It wasn't clear if they meant all Sea King variants, but the only ones in the film clip were HC4s, the one's without floats. That would seem to indicate a serious reduction in capability as there are only two squadrons worth of Merlins in the RAF, and there are three of HC4s in the FAA.

[Weaver]

Have we got enough commandos left to fill three sqadrons of Merlins though, or enough ships to fly them all from for that matter?

Also, don't forget that the Merlin is considerably bigger than the Sea King, carrying 45 troops instead of 27.

[PR19_Kit]

Have we got enough commandos left to fill three sqadrons of Merlins though, or enough ships to fly them all from for that matter?

Also, don't forget that the Merlin is considerably bigger than the Sea King, carrying 45 troops instead of 27.

Yes, good question re the number of Commandos, but the 'Bay' Class RFAs have got HUGE flight decks, they could probably fly six Merlins at once off one. The Ocean and the Bulwark are still available too and they have large decks as well. I hadn't forgotten about the capacity issue but if one Merlin gets shot down we'd lose more Commandos. Sometimes 'lots of smaller' ones works better than 'a few big ones'.

[DarrenP]

problem with the HC3 is the reinforced passanger compartment floor that the RAF insisted on for merlin so it could carry vehicles funny how chinook didn't have to have that requirement! The weight will make conversion to maritime role difficult as it will require more tiedowns and are they going to make the rotor head fold along with tail. All this will add weight and reduce lift capicity therefore you could see it carrying less than 45 marines.

[Hobbes]

problem with the HC3 is the reinforced passanger compartment floor that the RAF insisted on for merlin so it could carry vehicles funny how chinook didn't have to have that requirement!

Sure it did. Maybe it didn't stand out because the Chinook was designed for heavy loads from the start.

[Weaver]

45 is the rated capacity of the RAF version, so I presume that's allowing for the reinforced floor. Of course, one rarely gets told all the conditions behind "headline" performance figures, so how realistic it is is anyone's guess. On the other hand, passengers are a relatively low-density cargo, so they tend to "bulk out" before they "weight out".

[DarrenP]

Problem will be when they start to add additional tie down points on the airframe and a folding rotor head and tail as all this will increase the weight so capicity will fall.

[rickshaw]

I've often wondered why helicopters are designed to carry larger/smaller numbers than a tactical unit (ie a platoon is approximately 30 men, if you load a Merlin to capacity, you're carrying a platoon and a half - this leads to all sorts of tactical problems upon arrival as units are split and need to be reunited).  From the military commander's point of view, it would be better to design the transport to carry either a section (~10 men) or a platoon (~30 men) or a company (~120 men).

Kit, your point about more rather than less, makes sense but would be expensive in manpower and/or equipment.  Of course, we could give every Marine one of these:

[Weaver]

Probably because almost no helicopter has ever been designed purely around the section/platoon transport mission. They are usually envisaged as performing a whole variety of roles, each of which will impose it's own requirements. Casevac, for example, requires x amount of equipment and the ability to load, service and unload stretchers, which are a totally different shape and have different handling conditions to people or most cargo. If the helo has a tail ramp to carry light vehicles, then the width is set by the track of the intended vehicle plus enough for a loadmaster to get around the side of it, etc, etc....

[rickshaw]

Probably because almost no helicopter has ever been designed purely around the section/platoon transport mission. They are usually envisaged as performing a whole variety of roles, each of which will impose it's own requirements. Casevac, for example, requires x amount of equipment and the ability to load, service and unload stretchers, which are a totally different shape and have different handling conditions to people or most cargo. If the helo has a tail ramp to carry light vehicles, then the width is set by the track of the intended vehicle plus enough for a loadmaster to get around the side of it, etc, etc....

Yes, but then you end up with something like the V-22, which carries neither a tactical load of personnel nor a vehicle load very well...

[DarrenP]

yes if you are carrying a lot of people do you want an complete platoon in 1 aircraft? you loose that aircraft you loose the platoon! its tactically difficult but makes more sense to split a platoon between aircraft.

[Green Dragon]

Haven't all the navalisation mods already been done with the JMSDF's Antarctic AW101's? Is it a case of adding these to RAF airframes or are there different stress points on the RAF Merlins?

Paul Harrison