Maritime Patrol and ASW- the little ones......

[dy031101]

I came across Brian H's proposal of a maritime patrol OV-10 during the weekend...... that brought up a lot of things that I read from various places......

First, Germany (and probably Italy?) came up with kits for some of their fighters to improve the fighters' ability against seaborne targets.

Then came the Shorts Seamew, a simple, lightweight anti-submarine aircraft capable of unassisted operation from any of the Royal Navy's aircraft carriers.

GTX mentioned that IA-58 was trialled with a torpedo armament, and I did a google on that......  The torpedo, from what I could find, is an anti-ship torpedo (a late-WWII Mk.13).  The installation is meant for use against the British fleet during the Falkland War.

Aermacchi came up with a maritime patrol version of SF.260 trainer (SF.260SW Sea Warrior, IIRC), its equipment fit allegedly including a radar in one of the wingtip fuel tanks.

And Grumman also proposed an ASW version of A-6 Intruder (Model 128U).  Granted, I wouldn't call that one as "small", but it's nonetheless interesting.

Was the Grumman Model 128U to be a two seater?  Or was an additional crew station to be added?

I've also been wondering: do modern maritime patrol and/or ASW platforms always need to have a crew of three or more?  In many cases- helicopters and two-engined aircraft- two of them are pilot and co-pilot.  What of aircraft based on those originally crewed by a single experienced pilot and either a student pilot or a dedicated system operator to begin with?

Does anyone have pictures for the SF.260SW and model of Grumman 128U?

Any effort to help with this topic would be greatly appreciated.

[Bryan H.]

It seems that many countries have a need (at least part-time) for some sort of MP capability.  For example, Sri Lanka uses Cessna Model 337's, Colombia uses A-37's over it's Caribbean waters, Tonga uses antique Beechcraft planes, the Bahamas use light single & twin-engine 'civilian' aircraft, Belize uses Defenders, etc...  A MP aircraft that was a close cousin to a useful non-MP variant (ie. training, COIN, light attack, liaison...) might do well.  My hypothetical PV-10's might sell well to a country that needed an aircraft like a newly manufactured, modernized OV-10.  A MP version of Embraer's A-29 might do well with a country that has or needs the A-29.  Same with the SF.260 & SF.260SW...

Bryan

 

[Ed S]

If you're interested, here's a thread of an OV-10 I build as a floatplane used for Sea Surveillance.  It has a radar and some Sea Skua's with Indonesian Markings.

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,18837.0.html

Ed

[AeroplaneDriver]

BAe proposed and marketed a martime patrol version of the Jetstream 31 in the 80s.  It was called the Jetstream 31EZ (for Economic Zone), as the name implies it was targetet more at economic patrol missions such as fisheries protection.  It wold have been unarmed, witha 360 degree radar, and bulged observation windows.  I think the crew on the EZ was to be 4-5, which would mean two pilots and 2-3 observers/sensor operators.

It doesn't really fit into the 'small' category, but the company I used to work for in the early 90s as a flight instructor (Piedmont Aviaition) did heavy maintenance on the Dutch F.27s used for maritime patrol in the Carribbean. It was always a treat to taxi back to the MX hangar in the Bonaonza or Baron and find a Dutch Navy F.27 back there.

Along the same lines ATR offer (I think they still offer it) and ATR72 for the MP mission, with armament including Exocets.  I think Turkey have some on order. 

Back to smaller airframes, the Britten-Norman Defender is available in a maritime surveillance version.  IIRC they use/used these for fisheries patrol in the Falklands.

[Weaver]

Reminds me of Hasegawa's cute little MU-2 SAR plane: the last kit I bought before dropping out the last time!

[Joe C-P]

The V-22 would make a good candidate, though I don't know how "small" one would consider it. The advantage of airplane speed combined with a helo's hover for dipping.

The question is how small an aircraft can be while still able to carry a useful load to search for and prosecute enemy subs.

JoeP

[upnorth]

Being as how things like the F.27 have been brought up, I guess we can also bring up things like the Dornier 228 which does get a fair bit of use in coast guard services. I believe the Netherlands, Finnland and India all use them for that sort of thing.

I wonder what the feasibility of rigging out a Let 410 Turbolet for coastal patrol and some anti shipping might be. I imagine the wings could be strengthened to take weapon stations and there is a real world variant of it with a reccon nose on it.

[Weaver]

You see a lot of Matchbox Dornier Skyservants on ebay. I don't know if they've ever been used for MPA, but they look promising.

[Damian2]

I'd love to get my hands on one or two of the 1/48 Biz Jets like the Falcon or Lear Jet to do a coastal patrol variant and an electronic survailance variant.

[B777LR]

Along the same lines ATR offer (I think they still offer it) and ATR72 for the MP mission, with armament including Exocets.  I think Turkey have some on order.

Yes, and Italy, Libya and Nigeria too. I beleive Singapore has some as well? It is also offered based upon the ATR42

The RDAF uses 3 Challenger 604s for maritime patrol. They look for pollution, and look for ships that pollute illegaly.

The Netherlands have the Fokker 60, but they have been retired.


Thinking in whiff lines, i think following would be suitable as ASW and MP planes:

C-130
A-400M
SAAB 340
SAAB 2000
Il-114
Dash-8 Q400 (the Dash-8 is already an ASW aircraft, but not the Q400 yet)
An-140 (and the IrAn-140)
Airbus A319 (already in the works)
NAMC YS-11
Gulfstream G-IV
Sukhoi Superjet
HS748
BAe ATP

[Mossie]

I finished this one recentley, Curtiss S2C Goshawk, or Kittyhawk Mk.III (F) in British service.

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,20343.0/highlight,p-40+floatplane.html





My backstory was for the USN to order it is an interim to the the SC Sea Hawk entering service, as a fleet patrol & spotter.  The RAF were to operate it as an alternative to the Spitfire Floatplanes that never quite materialised.  This machine is marked up as one from the RAF's Merchant Ship Fighter Unit, to replace their 'one way' Hurricanes & would provide much better merchant fleet protection.

A near future project will be for a Coastal Command Spitfire Mk.IIa (LR).  This was a lesser known variant with a 40 gallon tank mounted under one wing & gave the Spit considerable extra range.  Only about 50-60 were built & none saw service with Coastal Command.  My intention is for it to be a long range patrol fighter & convoy escort, & gives me an excuse to put in the Coastal Command patrol scheme with high white undersides, one of the few RAF schemes that the Spitfire never wore.

[B777LR]

The Russian Navy pondered an ASW version of the Su-32, for use on the Kuznetsov. Dont know what happened to the Su-32 though...

[kitnut617]

I would imagine this could fall right into this idea:

[Mossie]

That'd be perfect for Canuck Shipping & rig protection duties Robert!  Nice!

Thomas, the Su-32 is the export version of the Su-34, & I think there's a land based naval strike variant planned.  Nobody has bit yet.

I alluded breifly to the Curtiss SC Seahawk above.  This was a lesser known patrol aircraft that saw service with the USN, only about 500 SC-1's were built & 10 SC-2's.  The fact that it only saw service in relatively small numbers with the USN makes it very whiff-worthy.  It was very spritley & could mix it very well with the Japanese floatplane fighters.  It was mostly used as a fleet patrol aircraft & had two hard points for bombs, but could carry a podded search radar for detecting surface vessels.  The float originally had a small bomb bay, but there were problems with keeping it water-tight, so this space was converted to carry extra fuel & gave the Seahawk very good range.



SMER do a nice little kit in 1/72, worth getting hold of & it's fairly cheap.  The beauty of it for whiffers, is it comes with both floats & fixed landing gear, so you can rob the floats for another project & still build it OOB!  I'm thinking of converting mine to retractable landing gear as a carrier or land based fighter.  Might get another to do as a MSFU aircraft, or maybe a SEAC machine operating in Burma.

[AeroplaneDriver]

Not sure why I didnt think about the Dash 8. 

When I was instructing on the Dash one of our biggest clients was US Customs/Homeland Security.  They have several configured for Maritime Surveillance based in Florida and Puerto Rico.