Gunship ideas

[r16]

the notion that converted me to the gunship idea was the idea of a B-24 strafing the beaches in opposition to a landing , me daydreaming at the time ; and artillery would be a better bet than 50 calibers ...

[Weaver]

I've just been reading an article about gunships and it mentioned, without giving any details that the idea went back to the 1920s and was examined again in WWII without being implemented. Anyone got any ideas what these studies/ideas might have been?

[elmayerle]

How about a row of guns that can raise to level or depress to -20 degrees under the wings of a CRJ-700?

Like one of the gunpods the Su-22 can carry?  I could see something like that being applied to an AN-72 as part of a gunship conversion.

[philp]

I've just been reading an article about gunships and it mentioned, without giving any details that the idea went back to the 1920s and was examined again in WWII without being implemented. Anyone got any ideas what these studies/ideas might have been?

Weaver,
If I recall correctly, the first studies actually had to do with delivering the mail.  They found out that if you attached the mail pouch to a line and lowered it, then circled at a particular angel and speed, the pouch stayed in basically one place by the ground.  The mail man on the ground could take out his stuff and put in stuff for the next location.  The pilot then reeled in the pouch and flew on to the next delivery.  This provided less time on the ground, especially at locations that didn't have facilities for an aircraft.  Don't think the idea of putting a gun on the side and using that principle was looked at until the gunship trials with a C-131 that led to the AC-47.

[Weaver]

I've just been reading an article about gunships and it mentioned, without giving any details that the idea went back to the 1920s and was examined again in WWII without being implemented. Anyone got any ideas what these studies/ideas might have been?

Weaver,
If I recall correctly, the first studies actually had to do with delivering the mail.  They found out that if you attached the mail pouch to a line and lowered it, then circled at a particular angel and speed, the pouch stayed in basically one place by the ground.  The mail man on the ground could take out his stuff and put in stuff for the next location.  The pilot then reeled in the pouch and flew on to the next delivery.  This provided less time on the ground, especially at locations that didn't have facilities for an aircraft.  Don't think the idea of putting a gun on the side and using that principle was looked at until the gunship trials with a C-131 that led to the AC-47.

Now I've read something similar, but IIRC, it was a French missionary dropping supplies to isolated tribes in Vietnam where there was no landing strip. He had a pulley under the wingtip of his little Cessna, and he put the supplies in a bucket on the end of a rope that passed over the pulley and that allowed him to drop the supplies in a straight line when he orbited correctly. However, I had the impression that this was in the late 50's/early 60's and it was his example that gave the Americans the idea for the gunship.

A similar principle is used on the TACAMO aircraft to produce a huge vertical dipole aerial by orbiting precisely while the ULF wire is trailed.

[Shasper]

The Idea of the Side-Firing gunship had been around since the inter-war (20's-30's) period, but it was finally taken seriously during 'Nam.

Shas

[Mossie]

Ford Trimotors, Ju-52's, DC-2's, maybe even Avro Ansons as pre-war gunships then?

[philp]

Ford Trimotors, Ju-52's, DC-2's, maybe even Avro Ansons as pre-war gunships then?

Even do a F-47 armed with .50s during the Normandy invasion (bet that could confuse some JMNs, Why does this D-Day striped Dakota have guns sticking out?).
There was at least one AC-47 that was armed with 10 .30cal mgs instead of the miniguns (can't remember if there was a shortage of pods or what) and I think the ones in El Salvador used .50s.

[jcf]

Ford Trimotors, Ju-52's, DC-2's, maybe even Avro Ansons as pre-war gunships then?

Even do a F-47 armed with .50s during the Normandy invasion (bet that could confuse some JMNs, Why does this D-Day striped Dakota have guns sticking out?).
There was at least one AC-47 that was armed with 10 .30cal mgs instead of the miniguns (can't remember if there was a shortage of pods or what) and I think the ones in El Salvador used .50s.

'Twouldn't be an F-47, F was the designation for photographic aircraft.

It could arguably still be an AC-47 as the use of secondary designators began in January, 1943... prefixes such as "R" for restricted and "U" added to cargo aircraft with a payload of fewer than eight passengers or 1,400 lbs to create the UC-XX designation.
So appending the "A" for attack to a D-Day C-47 isn't that much of a stretch. 

Now the question is, what would one call a WWII RAF armed Dak?

Jon

[Archangel]

Ford Trimotors, Ju-52's, DC-2's, maybe even Avro Ansons as pre-war gunships then?

Even do a F-47 armed with .50s during the Normandy invasion (bet that could confuse some JMNs, Why does this D-Day striped Dakota have guns sticking out?).
There was at least one AC-47 that was armed with 10 .30cal mgs instead of the miniguns (can't remember if there was a shortage of pods or what) and I think the ones in El Salvador used .50s.

'Twouldn't be an F-47, F was the designation for photographic aircraft.

It could arguably still be an AC-47 as the use of secondary designators began in January, 1943... prefixes such as "R" for restricted and "U" added to cargo aircraft with a payload of fewer than eight passengers or 1,400 lbs to create the UC-XX designation.
So appending the "A" for attack to a D-Day C-47 isn't that much of a stretch. 

Now the question is, what would one call a WWII RAF armed Dak?

Jon

"A well armed recreational vehicle?"

[Jschmus]

Well, the Vietnam AC-47s were originally designated "FC-47" before the AF clamped down on the idea of anything like the Skytrain being a fighter.

[Burncycle]

I've just been reading an article about gunships and it mentioned, without giving any details that the idea went back to the 1920s and was examined again in WWII without being implemented. Anyone got any ideas what these studies/ideas might have been?

As mentioned, in the interwar years they did tests successfully proving the idea (scoring accurate hits on a target using a DH-4 with a fixed .30 caliber)

In WWII one idea to make submarine hunting aircraft more effective was to use gunships because it was a time critical fleeting target, and with a gunship you could keep your guns trained on the submarine and spray it continuously.

[philp]

'Twouldn't be an F-47, F was the designation for photographic aircraft.

Jon

Doh, and P-47 was already taken.

[Shasper]

Looks like Gunship Lite (AC-27J) is getting to be more factual:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/AC27-072508.xml

Also, the 30mm refit to the U-boats has been canned due accuracy issues.


Shas

[kitnut617]

Also, the 30mm refit to the U-boats has been canned due accuracy issues.


Shas

Now is that because the gun is inaccurate, or the mounting system in the AC-130 inadequate causing the gun to be inaccurate.