SPAAS Thread

[rickshaw]

I wonder if it would be possible to also fit some Rapier SAMs to the Marksman turret so as to great a dual gun/missile system?  And further to this idea, does anyone know what the arrangement is for the Marksman Turret - specifically re sensors and the like.  Looking at the Marksman head on, I note the large blank area (see below) - I assume this is fitted with something but I'm not sure what.

Regards,
Greg

I'm guessing the elevation gears and ammunition spaces are behind the front, which should be well armored.

The largest volume would be consumed with ammunition feed and storage.   What many people forget when looking at such weapon systems is that they have high rates of fire and therefore consume large volumes of ammunition and that ammunition has to be stored somewhere and it has to have a clear path from that somewhere to the guns. More than likely, that front of the turret is made up of 90% ammunition.

Going back to the original question - yes you could more than likely put some Rapier on there but you'd have to make space for beefing up the servo motors to counter the increased elevating mass plus the missile guidance systems.   Rapier is not a small missile.  It would increase the width of the vehicle appreciably, making problems when manoeuvring through confined spaces and along roads.

[GTX]

The largest volume would be consumed with ammunition feed and storage.   What many people forget when looking at such weapon systems is that they have high rates of fire and therefore consume large volumes of ammunition and that ammunition has to be stored somewhere and it has to have a clear path from that somewhere to the guns. More than likely, that front of the turret is made up of 90% ammunition.

Good points.  I was aware of the ammunition and mechanical systems requirement - I just wanted to confirm

Going back to the original question - yes you could more than likely put some Rapier on there but you'd have to make space for beefing up the servo motors to counter the increased elevating mass plus the missile guidance systems.   Rapier is not a small missile.  It would increase the width of the vehicle appreciably, making problems when manoeuvring through confined spaces and along roads.

I was initially thinking of 3 options here:

• Put 1 - 2 rapier on each side above the 35mm cannon - agreed this would require updated mechanics;
• Put a single Rapier missile pack (from Tracked Rapier) on rear of turret; or
• Replace 35mm cannon on one side with Rapier missile pack

I'm only toying with the idea though, so all these ideas may be well off the mark.

Another option I wonder - put a Gepard turret on the Chieftain hull?

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

Another option for combined systems such as proposed above would be the RBS 70 - thoughts?

Regards,

Greg

[rickshaw]

The largest volume would be consumed with ammunition feed and storage.   What many people forget when looking at such weapon systems is that they have high rates of fire and therefore consume large volumes of ammunition and that ammunition has to be stored somewhere and it has to have a clear path from that somewhere to the guns. More than likely, that front of the turret is made up of 90% ammunition.

Good points.  I was aware of the ammunition and mechanical systems requirement - I just wanted to confirm

Going back to the original question - yes you could more than likely put some Rapier on there but you'd have to make space for beefing up the servo motors to counter the increased elevating mass plus the missile guidance systems.   Rapier is not a small missile.  It would increase the width of the vehicle appreciably, making problems when manoeuvring through confined spaces and along roads.

I was initially thinking of 3 options here:

• Put 1 - 2 rapier on each side above the 35mm cannon - agreed this would require updated mechanics;
• Put a single Rapier missile pack (from Tracked Rapier) on rear of turret; or
• Replace 35mm cannon on one side with Rapier missile pack

I'm only toying with the idea though, so all these ideas may be well off the mark.

They would be workable but you'd have to beef up the turret motors as well.  Anything that increases the turret weight means that it is harder to turn.  If you put a large weight on the rear of the turret, you have to compensate with an equal weight on the front.

One advantage of putting a complete Rapier launcher onto such a system as Marksman is that it would provide a seperate search radar - the large drum structure in the centre of Rapier mountings has a search radar mounted in it, while unusually Rapier relies on CLOS (Command to Line of Sight) guidance to guide the missile to its target and hence doesn't need a radar.  While that limits it (in its basic version) to daylight visual engagements it makes it harder to detect and jam.

A better, lighter option that you suggest in your other posting is RBS-70.  I'd suggest to keep it "all British" would be Blowpipe/Javelin/Starstreak.

Another option I wonder - put a Gepard turret on the Chieftain hull?

Regards,

Greg

Possible.  That is essentially what Marksman is, afterall.

[Weaver]

If you replaced one gun with missiles, the other gun's recoil axis would be off-centre from the turret, so it would tend to push the turret around as it fired, possible reducing accuracy. One solution would be to replace the remaining gun with a Mauser RMK recoilless weapon: http://www.rheinmetall-detec.com/index.php?fid=1506&lang=3&pdb=1

[Sauragnmon]

Or here's a scary thought - A couple of ADATS boxes mounted on a Gepard/Marksman turret, or else sit them outboard of the 35mm gun mounts similar to the Tungusaka/Pantsir layout so you have them counterbalanced in that way.

[Weaver]

Copied from the Chieftain thread for the sake of completeness:

The radar is a Marconi 400 series. It has both surveillance mode (scans at 60rpm) and tracking mode, so it it doesn't need any extra sensors: it's similar to the Gun Dish radar on ZSU-23-4s in that respect.

The same radar was marketed for naval use fitted to the top of a Breda twin 30mm turret, the combination being known as Sea Cobra. I don't know if they sold any.

[rickshaw]

Copied from the Chieftain thread for the sake of completeness:

The radar is a Marconi 400 series. It has both surveillance mode (scans at 60rpm) and tracking mode, so it it doesn't need any extra sensors: it's similar to the Gun Dish radar on ZSU-23-4s in that respect.

The same radar was marketed for naval use fitted to the top of a Breda twin 30mm turret, the combination being known as Sea Cobra. I don't know if they sold any.

Problem with a combined scan and track radar is that once it has a lock on, it stops scanning.   Not necessarily a good idea for an AA system.

[Weaver]

Copied from the Chieftain thread for the sake of completeness:

The radar is a Marconi 400 series. It has both surveillance mode (scans at 60rpm) and tracking mode, so it it doesn't need any extra sensors: it's similar to the Gun Dish radar on ZSU-23-4s in that respect.

The same radar was marketed for naval use fitted to the top of a Breda twin 30mm turret, the combination being known as Sea Cobra. I don't know if they sold any.

Problem with a combined scan and track radar is that once it has a lock on, it stops scanning.   Not necessarily a good idea for an AA system.

Agreed: on the other thread I was just explaining how it works.  The radar seems to have been mainly developed as a naval fire control radar, where the scanning function is extra to the ship's main low-level search radar, rather than the only search radar available.

You can make an argument for separating search radars from weapon/fire control systems in an air-defence network and linking them via datalinks. This allows the search radars to be in the best locations for them (high ground, good FOV) and the weapons to still be near the defended targets. It also protects the weapons from destruction by ARMs, which tend to go for search radars. Indeed there's a further case for making the actual search radar an unmanned trailer connected to it's control vehicle via a cable. That way, if it gets SEADed, they can just go and get another trailer (or even have one ready to go).

The British Army has a neat PASSIVE IR air-search device called ADAD, which can be seen on the turret on Starstreak and LeFlays vehicles. It's also available on a ground-mount tripod.

[elmayerle]

Haven't seen this mentioned, but how about a CIWS adaptation that could be "dropped in" in place of the turret and main gun?  I could see several possibilities for commonality and such, but I'm not sure that a design for naval use could take the pounding of land travel without some structural changes.

[arkon]

hello all,first time posting,but how about use of israile merkava hull,loose troop compartment in rear, install vls in its place,add new turet with 30mm avenger from a-10

[Weaver]

Haven't seen this mentioned, but how about a CIWS adaptation that could be "dropped in" in place of the turret and main gun?  I could see several possibilities for commonality and such, but I'm not sure that a design for naval use could take the pounding of land travel without some structural changes.

Naval systems have to be pretty tough too though. Ship motions can impose some extreme forces, as can hundreds of tons of water crashing over everything at 30kts. I think the main problems would be the land requirements for armour and reasonable height. The Otomatic is rather tall, for example.

Breda do a version of their Fast Forty twin-40mm turret on a trailer, which is pretty formidable. It's not armoured but it's still quite heavy as such things go, needed a serious towing vehicle. That suggests that a tank chassis might be a good basis for it, but then you pretty much end up with a Sergeant York....

Speaking of Sergeant York, wasn't one of the losing submissions for DIVADS GAU-8 based?

[Jschmus]

Speaking of Sergeant York, wasn't one of the losing submissions for DIVADS GAU-8 based?

Yes.  I thought it was posted somewhere else in this thread, but I was mistaken.

[Weaver]

That looks tidy - who submitted it?

In fact sod the radar, I just want to to war in one of those, preferably against infantry and soft-skins......

[Jschmus]

According to the original post on the Secret Projects forum, that was submitted by General Electric, since the GAU-8 was theirs.