SPAAS Thread

[GTX]

Two better drawings of the Flakpanzer IV Kugelblitz and Destroyer 45:




Regards,

Greg

[ysi_maniac]

^^^^^
And something heavier on a Panther hull ??

[Weaver]

All part of the NIH syndrome the US suffered from for many years (Oh, and the terrible pork-barrelling disease as well).   Just look at what they did to the Roland SAM system.  First they adopted it, then had to re-engineer it, find a new chassis to put it on and then quietly forgot all about it as fast as they could 'cause it wasn't American, despite having a need for a mobile SAM system and then reformulating the requirement which the Roland filled very nicely as the NLOS (Non-Line-of-Sight-System) SAM.   

Well the USA is hardly alone in that case - look how many times here in Australia we have gone through the 'Australianizing' process only to get marginal, if any improvements.  I think you will find a variation of this in most developed countries.  And arguably it isn't necessary always a bad thing - without such programs, industrial participation in many countries would be virtually nil and many people (including a few here) would be out of jobs.

Regards,

Greg

We get the same thing here: people (particularly ex-military) ask why we don't just buy all our stuff from America and get the economies of scale, but they forget that the size of the defence budget is partly justified by the local jobs, exports and technology base that it generates. Throw all that away and the whole budget becomes a trade-deficit item on the Chancellor's balance sheet....

[rickshaw]

Well the USA is hardly alone in that case - look how many times here in Australia we have gone through the 'Australianizing' process only to get marginal, if any improvements.  I think you will find a variation of this in most developed countries.  And arguably it isn't necessary always a bad thing - without such programs, industrial participation in many countries would be virtually nil and many people (including a few here) would be out of jobs.

Regards,

Greg

Fair point.  However one I'd tend to disagree with, suggesting that there is a difference between adapting a design to local tactical needs and redesigning a system in order to kill it, as it is unwanted by the military brass but forced upon them by their political masters.   However, obstinacy it must be admitted is an all too common thing in human nature so its easy to confuse one with the t'other. 

[rickshaw]

We get the same thing here: people (particularly ex-military) ask why we don't just buy all our stuff from America and get the economies of scale, but they forget that the size of the defence budget is partly justified by the local jobs, exports and technology base that it generates. Throw all that away and the whole budget becomes a trade-deficit item on the Chancellor's balance sheet....

We've been down that line downunder in the last 20 years.  During the 1980s-early 1990s, the then Labor government promoted greater self-sufficiency in defence procurement.  We therefore chose to licence manufacture rather than simply buy off the shelf.  That was how we ended up building aircraft (F/A-18), submarines (COLLINS class) and rifles (F88) and LMGs (M249), amongst other things.   The then Opposition, the conservative Liberal and National Parties were severely critical of the added cost.  When they got into government, having made grandiose statements about doing more with off the shelf, suddenly they faced the realities of the need to keep jobs and foreign exchange in the country.  The off the shelf option died a quiet death for the most part.  Only the MBT purchase of the M1a1AIMs went through that process but that was more because we simply couldn't justify the cost of local AFV manufacture (as Project Waler showed) and the Army wanted to rub the then PM's nose in his claims about sending an "Armoured Brigade Group" to Iraq (which we didn't and still don't have). 

Where possible, we also tend to "Australianise" the foreign designs we purchase.  Which adds cost but makes them more suitable to our tactical thinking and strategic realities.

[GTX]

Where possible, we also tend to "Australianise" the foreign designs we purchase.  Which adds cost but makes them more suitable to our tactical thinking and strategic realities.

That's questionable.

Greg

[rickshaw]

Where possible, we also tend to "Australianise" the foreign designs we purchase.  Which adds cost but makes them more suitable to our tactical thinking and strategic realities.

That's questionable.

Greg

Let me off a counter-example of where we did not "Australianise" - the Leopard AS1.   We accepted them basically as bog standard Leopard 1a4s (in fact they were the prototypes for the Germans' purchase of that model).  Which were marginal at best at Pukka.  Once they moved to the Top End they became unfightable.  60+ degree internal temperatures because of poorly cooled electronics, lack of adequate ventilation and no additional cooling, coupled with 40+ degree external temperatures with 95+% humidity made crewing them a misery.   The M1a1AIMs came with additional airconditioning as a consequence (admittedly it was a standard accessory because of experiences in SW Asia but it wasn't routinely added outside of that theatre).

I agree that we've discovered going too far down the road of making equipment too specific for "Australian Conditions" adds unnecessary expense.  However, not going down that road at all often means we end up with something we simply can't use effectively.   Somewhere there has to be a compromise.  Discovering that point is the problem.

[GTX]

The M1a1AIMs came with additional airconditioning as a consequence (admittedly it was a standard accessory because of experiences in SW Asia but it wasn't routinely added outside of that theatre).

That isn't 'Australianising', it's simply selecting an already developed and proven option.

I don't have a problem with local production or production input.  I also don't mind changing designs for specific local requirements, but only where absolutely necessary.  Too often unfortunately, uniformed customers think they know best (arguable) and seem to want change for change sake (hidden behind so called 'specific operational needs').  A big problem IMHO here is that uniformed customers generally are inexperienced with the realities of the world when it comes to cost and schedules.  They also force companies to compete for to provide the lowest price which ends up with someone being silly enough to offer the impossible.

Sorry, went on a bit of a rant there.

Greg

[chrisonord]

I have a bit of an interest in SPAAS's myself, and I as part of my builds I have looked into the available platforms and collected a few pics.
If it is ok, can I put some pictures up on this thread?
Cheers,
Chris. 

[GTX]

I have a bit of an interest in SPAAS's myself, and I as part of my builds I have looked into the available platforms and collected a few pics.
If it is ok, can I put some pictures up on this thread?
Cheers,
Chris. 

Go for it!

Regards,

Greg

[chrisonord]

ok you asked for it 

[chrisonord]

and a few more.
OOPS!! sorry for repeating the last one, how do I delete it please??
Chris.





***Simple enough.  You can ask nice (which you did) and I or one of the other moderators can edit your comment.  If you want to do this yourself, you can by selecting the option to "MODIFY" your post (option located in upper right corner ) then go to the section where you added the images and simply "UNCHECK" the image that you wish to delete and then save.  The same process can be performed if you wish to change images so you do not have to create another post just to add something that would fit best with your original comment.***

[MAD]

Sorry gents
What is the designation of the modernized ZSU-23-4?
But want nationality is this upgraded ZSU-23-4? Polish?
What SAM does it use and what is the passive tracking system it uses?
Is it in production?

M.A.D

[chrisonord]

This is the ZSU-23-4MP Biała, an upgraded(shilka) current service vehicle used by the Polish. The missiles are the Grom SAM's of which it has 4.
The guns are liquid cooled also, and it uses a new digital optical  sighting system.
Chris.

[Doc Yo]

 The ZSU-57 is one of my personnal favorites-I'm a bit surprised there's never ( so far as I know ) been a
mainstream kit of the thing. I remember reading that the Syrians had used it to good effect in the Golan heights.