Japanese Heinkel/Aichi-119 Torpedo Bomber

[sequoiaranger]

>Now to the He 119 which is a can of worms! <

Though I think that "opening a can of worms" is a British or American idiom for "creating trouble", I think it would be a GREAT "personal emblem" or squadron badge. I **MAY** use that idea and create a squadron badge from the "can of worms" for the German Aichi 119 torpedo squadron, in honor of this discussion. Maybe the wiggly "worms" will have torpedo heads and propeller-tails on them. Dunno.

If any of you out there know good German, maybe you could fill me in on an appropriate literal German translation with proper endings, etc.

For American aircraft, a "can of spinach" and Popeye would be a great personal emblem (for those of you who might not know, the frail-looking cartoon sailor "Popeye" could turn himself into a super-human--and did in every episode--by opening and downing a can of spinach, to accompanying triumphant music). For 21st century American aircraft, a "can of whoop-a$$" might do (kind of an "urban-black" take on the Popeye legend).

OK, OK, I think the "crowd" has convinced me to shelve the motorization and proceed with the "Aichi 119" as my next whif. Didn't take much, did it?

[pbhawkin]

Hi all,
I have received a reply from Mr Volker Koos and he very kindly translated his information on the He-119.
Here are three paragraphs from what he kindly sent to me:

In the Flugzeug-Entwicklungsprogramm (FEP, i.e. aircraft development program) of the RLM (1.7.1936) for this reason the He 119 V-1 and V-2 are listed as fast bombers. But it is already said, that this Heinkel aircraft would not be ordered in greater numbers. The FEP of 1.10.1936 gives some more details. Here the He 119 V-1 (Wnr. (c/n) 2402), V-2 (2403) and V-4 (2405) are planned as fast bomber prototypes and the V-3 and V-5 (2404 and 2406) are listed as prototypes for the world flight. At that time also a pre-series of seven fast bombers was planned. Already in January 1937 the number of He 119 prototypes was reduced to three, that should be used for engine-trials. The FEP of 1.4.1937 omitted the idea of the world flight. Only the He 119 SV-1, SV-2 and SV-3 (Wnr. 2402, 2403 and 2405) are listed as engine-testbeds. Later the c/ns were fitted to the row, so that the V-3 became the 2404. (SV means Sonder-Versuch, i.e. a V-machine für special tests). 

also,

After the first flight in June 1937 and the above mentioned record-flight in November, the He 119 V-1 was again prepared for a record-flight, because the first record was beated on December 10 by an Italian Breda 88. During the second record-flight attempt on December 16, 1937 the He 119 SV-1 (Wnr. 2402, D-AUTE) crashed in Travemünde. The accident was caused by a failure in the tank switching. Nitschke suffered hard injuries, Dieterle only a little bit. (In the literature it is always said and copied again and again, that the record machine D-AUTE was the V-4, but that is total nonsense, because at that time only the V-1 was built and flown.) 

and:

The number of the built machines is not exactly known.The RLM gave the export permission after the procurement was rejected. But at Heinkel they tried further to build a bomber on the base of the He 119. The sixth of such projects became the He 119 SV-4. It was planned with the DB 610 (two connected DB 605), a four-bladed airscrew of 4,2 m Diameter, a 3 man-crew (one in a cabin behind the engine) and two 7,9-mm-guns MG 81 and further two 13-mm-guns MG 131 in the cockpit. A further MG 81 was operated by the gunner (third crew-member). The bomb-load of up to 600 kg and another tank of 600 liters ware placed in the fuselage. The planform of the wings was like that of the SV-3 straight not elliptical. The He 119 SV-4 was first flown in May 1940. After seeing the He 119 in Rostock-Marienehe on 1.12.1938 the Japanes Navy ordered two machines. These were delivered in 1941 by ship. Heinkels chief pilot Gerhard Nitschke also travelled to Japan for demonstration of the He 119 and He 100. Both He 119s crashed at landing after short-time testing in Japan. On the base of the He 119 the Japaneses developed the R2Y1 "Keiun" in the flight technical arsenal of the Navy in Yokosuka. Construction leader was Shiro Otsuki.
The two He 119s delivered to Japan were with great probabiliy the SV-2 and SV-4. In Japanese Literature the engine of both machines is said to be the DB 606. So it could have been, that the SV-4 never had the projected DB 610. (But in Japan often the older and often false German literature is copied too.) 

So it would seem that 2 He-119s made it to Japan and may well have been V-2 and V-4.

Many thanks to Mr Koos for his time and trouble and to others for their interest in this matter.

regards
Peter H

[sequoiaranger]

>I have received a reply from Mr Volker Koos and he very kindly translated his information on the He-119.<

My heartiest thanks! 

I guess, if his research is correct, that the most "grievous errors" made by William Green, et. al., was presuming that V5-V8 were built and that it was V7 and V8 that were shipped to Japan instead of earlier models. Gerhard Nitschke was a well-known and important person to the Heinkel works, so if he said that he had accompanied the He-119's to Japan to demonstrate them, he should be a credible witness!

If indeed it was May of 1940 when all this happened, I guess the Italians had not "stabbed France in the back" yet and her ships were "neutrals" and allowed to traverse the high seas! I wonder how Gerhard got BACK to Germany!

I have really enjoyed this discussion. Now I have to get my Grumman Gander "up and running" soon so I can start on my own Aichi 119!!

[sequoiaranger]

Now that I have finished my Grumman Gander floatplane for the GB, my thoughts now turn to my "Aichi 119"

I now "believe" that the radiator will go BEHIND the wing, somewhat like the P-51, to give proper room for a torpedo.

Though I wanted the "Heinkel He-111" look with the top gunner's position, in reality I think the Aichi 119 would be too fast for an open gun position like the drastically slower He-111. I am now thinking of a low-profile turret, but that might be too much weight to the rear, especially if the radiator setup goes back there, too. Maybe I will simply "enclose" the He-111-type setup.

Other thoughts are coming, but I must dash off to work. Later!

[Brian da Basher]

That's a very interesting concept you've got in the works there SR! I'd be tempted to give it a "solid" nose by painting over all the glass and turn the dorsal gunner's position into a cockpit by covering it with a bubble canopy.

I know I'm going to really enjoy watching you put this one together!

Brian da Basher

[sequoiaranger]

>I'd be tempted to give it a "solid" nose by painting over all the glass and turn the dorsal gunner's position into a cockpit by covering it with a bubble canopy.<

OK, **YOU** can do that on yours if you like, but....

The glass nose is the raison d'etre of my whif---this is such an unusual configuration, with the engine behind the pilot and the prop shaft running past the pilot to the nose. Of course, that is how the P-39/P-63's did it, but the pilot looked OVER the solid nose rather than THROUGH a glass one.

Actually, "we" thought Japan had something like what you envisioned--the "Gasu Denki". I have an old "Plane Spotter's Handbook" from 1943 that has the weirdest collection of aircraft in it. It's really accurate for planes up until about 1938, then completely misses the boat (er....plane) for so many thereafter. This "Gasu Denki", illustrated below, might have been mistaken for the He-119's that were bought from Germany by Japan in 1940 and shipped there. Other than the too-long wingspan, the big, single engine in the front (this would be a HUGE plane for a single-engine), chin radiator, elliptical wings, "pilot" (actually gunner's position) in the middle, big wheels, etc. just SCREAM a mistaken He-119 (the lack of glass nose in the description can be easily attributed to not even THINKING such would have been likely) to me.

At any rate, I am DEFINITELY keeping the glass nose. Probably putting a German (blue Luftwaffe uniform) in the pilot's seat and gunner's, and a Japanese (khaki uniform) liaison officer as a co-pilot. I am now thinking that I will keep the He-111 top gunner's canopy, but have the "open end" only open one "eyelid" from the bottom instead of the normal three, thus keeping an open spot to traverse the twin machine guns I plan to put there, but still keep the ferocious wind out (and streamlining relatively intact) and maintaining rearward visibility.

I'm going to have a "flying" torpedo made from a top half of a V-1 (I have a "Friedensangel"?? setup in 1/72, but I like my derivative better), and probably  two wing guns apiece.

Still in the mental planning stages (helps keeps the concept from going "wrong" when building), but I did want you to see the "Gasu Denki" (below)

[Sauragnmon]

A flying Torpedo you say... it's certainly interesting - imagine if you will, a massive torpedo, launched by rail, with the pulsejet used as a range extender, the wings to keep it in flight for a period, and when the PJ hits bingo fuel, she ditches the torp, the wings seperate on water penetration (after a short glide period post seperation as the engine kicks up) and then is driven by Oxygen-assisted power into the shipping target.

Your thoughts, old guru?

[sequoiaranger]

>A flying Torpedo you say... it's certainly interesting - imagine if you will, a massive torpedo, launched by rail, with the pulsejet used as a range extender, the wings to keep it in flight for a period, and when the PJ hits bingo fuel, she ditches the torp, the wings seperate on water penetration (after a short glide period post seperation as the engine kicks up) and then is driven by Oxygen-assisted power into the shipping target. Your thoughts, old guru?<

First of all, **MY** flying torpedo is merely a short-glide type (no pulse-jet engine) so that the mother plane can remain higher and faster when approaching a target, launching the gliding torpedo INSTEAD of carrying it another couple-thousand yards. The "wing thing" breaks off upon water entry, and the torpedo is now "normal". The trouble with more power and longer distance is accuracy and guidance--JUST like the V-1's to London--they NEEDED a London-sized target to hit. The key is your phrase "into to target". It was hard enough for the Kates to come in close (guided nearly into the target) and still score a hit on a moving ship, much less have a REALLY long distance drop. Better a guided missile like the Henschel 293 (?) that could in fact be guided INTO the target. Still most likely a "miss".

One of these days I will be making the "Doshaburi" (Cloudburst) suicide plane that will be more what you envision, with pulse-jet and rockets and prone-pilot guided.

[Jschmus]

I saw your scan from the plane-spotting brochure and I was intrigued.  I did a little research.  "Gasu Denki" was the Tokyo Gas & Electric Company, a manufacturer of trucks and subcontractor on aircraft projects.  I thought the plane in the scan looked a bit like the Bristol 138, which was a high-altitude research aircraft.  Looking over the scan again, I see that the aircraft name is given as "Koken".  I went back to Google and found the following:

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/koukenE.html

It was designed for long-distance flight testing.

[sequoiaranger]

Yes, I "googled" several different searches for various references to the plane, but only came up with one dead end (404 file not found) but several "hints" of its real origin. Thank you for your link. I also watched the U-Tube video links mentioned in the page. The two black dots on top of the fuselage near the wing roots are the pilot/copilot compartments, with a sliding glass that pops into the fuselage, and a pop-up triangular windscreen for when the pilots want to stick their heads out to see where they are going!

So I guess the Tokyo Gasu Denki Koken was a one-off real plane and nothing at all related to the He-119. No loss. I love finding out about obscure aircraft. Just MAYBE the Koken was the inspiration for the He-119!

[PACOPEPE]

Very interesting project. Have you seen the conversion to floatplane of AIRMODEL? .

Regards
Fran

[sequoiaranger]

>Have you seen the conversion to floatplane of AIRMODEL? .<

Yes. I had the conversion kit, but sold it off. I had originally wanted to do a floatplane He-119 to illustrate the planes from the Spanish carrier "Dedalo" from my Furashita's Fleet,

http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/dedalo_f.htm

but declined when the German Pacific idea came to me.

[PACOPEPE]

Hi Craig, and all.
Do you remember the glider torpedo named "shneewittchen" of the He-380? . Do you like it? . It comes from a set kit of the manufacturer CONDOR.

Fran

[Zeke]

That's a very interesting concept you've got in the works there SR! I'd be tempted to give it a "solid" nose by painting over all the glass and turn the dorsal gunner's position into a cockpit by covering it with a bubble canopy.

I know I'm going to really enjoy watching you put this one together!

Brian da Basher

Great minds think alike...I've had this one on standby for a while now...could be time to do it I reckon...

[sequoiaranger]

I like the way that looks, though I think the canopy is way too large in proportion. Remember that the He-119 is no small plane (more or less a TWIN-engined aircraft, and some fifty feet long), so your canopy looks like it's ten feet long! Maybe a He-115 greenhouse canopy would work!

Anyway, maybe we can get a He-119 "Group Build" going!? Kidding, I think.

.....................

Paco--I have the Condor flying torpedo (thought it was something like FriedenAngel) and was going to use that, but wanted to use a more "recognizable" setup a la the V-1.