Tiger, Panther, and King Tiger

[ChernayaAkula]

The Sturmpanther - analogous to the Sturmtiger.



The well-sloped armour would probably be more efficient against infantry-carried anti-tank weapons than the thicker, but mostly vertical armour of the Tiger.

[sagallacci]

While it is an interesting looking machine, the thing is an awfully expensive way of hauling only a few troops. Perhaps a meter or so longer and with reduced armor and maybe even a small Mg turret might make more sense. Perhaps removing the radioman's position for some of the engine related systems to reduce the engine area length might help too.

[dy031101]

dy031101: paint it green and call it a Véhicule de Combat d'Infanterie. It'll fit right in with those postwar AMXs 

Like the AMX-VCI on steroids...... but anything with a superstructure like that, I'm still tempted to put a big gun instead of men in it...... 

[sagallacci]

A quick check of some scale layouts suggest the engine might be either mounted transversally right behind the transmission or, with a  200mm+added hull height, the engine could be set more or less in the radioman's location, above and to the right of the transmission. The former would give you only a bit of space savings, but an unaltered basic hull, the later would require more changes to the hull, but give you a lot more room, and with the added height, even more useful space in the sponsons.
With 60mm front and 40mm side armor and no turret, even the higher hull version would likely weight less than 40tons. The later version might be a bit nose heavy, with all the drive train up front, but would allow for almost two thirds of the hull open for all kinds of options.

[sequoiaranger]

I just was informed of this "whif"-potential tank that actually existed. I knew that the Germans had used troops in American uniforms the Ardennes "Bulge" offensive to try to throw off the Allies, but I had not heretofore heard of this use of "Panther" tanks to try to replicate American armor for the same devious purposes.

Please excuse if this is "old hat", but I found it fascinating and worthy of posting:

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/panther-tank-disguise-m10.html

Here is a pic from the site for a "teaser":

[dy031101]

How effective was the disguise?

I only read that all disguised tanks were destroyed, but that doesn't seem to tell me just how quickly (or slowly) they were discovered.

[ysi_maniac]

What about Prince Tiger? A light version of King Tiger.

[ysi_maniac]

And this Porsche design

[GTX]

What about Prince Tiger? A light version of King Tiger.

Engine turret interaction could be interesting .

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

On the previous page, I had a profile using an Anti-Aircraft cupola fitted with 30mm cannon.  I thought you might find it interesting to see some more on this real world proposal from WWII:



Regards,

Greg

[pyro-manic]

Interesting! I wouldn't have thought the MK 108 would be a very good choice for AA, though - it was low-velocity and quite short-ranged. I suppose as a battlefield weapon it would still be useful. Maybe the MK 103 instead?

[rickshaw]

Interesting! I wouldn't have thought the MK 108 would be a very good choice for AA, though - it was low-velocity and quite short-ranged. I suppose as a battlefield weapon it would still be useful. Maybe the MK 103 instead?

The Mk.108 was a good choice 'cause it was cheap n' nasty to manufacture, relying almost completely on stampings.  The barrel was short which also cut down machining costs.   Most AA weapons on tank cupolas were designed primarily for moral raising, rather than actual effectiveness (most tank crews when they saw a Typhoon or a Thunderbolt abandoned ship very quickly indeed.  Few tanks were actually hit by air-launched rockets or bombs anyway).  The Mk.108 therefore would have been an ideal weapon - it throws enough stuff into the air to possibly frighten the pilots and makes a suitably loud enough bang to enhearten the crew. The Mk.103 was, OTOH, quite a precision produced weapon and cost quite a bit more, although that tended to provide far better accuracy and far better reliability but it came at a cost the Reich couldn't bear by 1945.

On the matter of suspension.  Who can name the post war tank that inherited the suspension from the "E-series"?    

[dy031101]

Like the machinecannons on the T-72 Moderna, I think that the Cupola B ought to be rather useful in urban warfare scenarioes. 

[rickshaw]

On the matter of suspension.  Who can name the post war tank that inherited the suspension from the "E-series"?   

For the raising/lowering hydraulic suspension, Stridsvagn 103 is the obvious inheritor. But there's also the JGSDF Type 74 and Korean K1A1 (mixed with torsion bars, IIRC). At the smaller end of tracks, there's vehicles like the BMD-1.

The Leclerc doesn't raise/lower does it? Maybe Citroën should've made it 

The "E-series" didn't have Hydro-pneumatic suspension.  They utilised a system known as "Belleville washers".  Actually a French invention between the wars, BTW.  It was utilised by the Japanese mediums during WWII, the "E-series" of tanks designed (but not built) in Germany at the war's end and after the war, the system was inherited by the Swiss.  The Panzer 61 and Panzer 68 utilised it.  Basically it consists of a series of washers which a rod through the centre.  The washers are designed to deform, under load.  Essentially its a variation on the leaf-spring.   In the "E-series" its chief advantage was that it was both cheap and easy to manufacture and utilised lower quality steel compared to torsion bars.  It also has the advantage of being externally mounted, so if a road wheel is damaged, all you have to do is remove it and the associated suspension arm and its Belleville washers.    Unfortunately, its fallen, like the Horstman suspension system out of favour nowadays.

[jcf]

Further to rickshaw's comments on the Mk. 108, some of the rounds used in the Mk.108 were basically thin-walled,
anti-aircraft 'grenades' that functioned like flak shells, so its not much of stretch to use it as a ground-based flak
weapon.

http://deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/m/MK%20108/rheinmetall108.htm