the FAIL guns

[Maverick]

Ben,

I think you're quite right about the whizz-bangs in the face of reality.  Whilst manufacturers like to pump out high-tech with all the bells, whistles and frequently the kitchen sink, actual combat tends to give everyone who's doing the job a reality check and most of the high-tech goes by the wayside.

This whole thing of infomercialing military hardware is a joke.  I remember seeing a Stryker thing where the crew waxed long & lyrical about the vehicle's abilities.  A point made was that serving soldiers aren't supposed to give product endorsements.  When manufacturers and and defence orginasations start worrying about the commercial aspect of the deal, that to me is the death knell of any legitimate production.

Regards,

Mav

[Wyrmshadow]

Don't worry Ron.. that's exactly what I told the main moderator, but I was even ruder than that.
boiled down... here's how it went:

guy posts picture of guns.
Wyrm: How are you supposed to aim?
guy: down the sights stupid.
Wyrm: there's no place to rest your face/head. It's bad ergonomics
guy: "Suggestions duly noted and ignored"
Wyrm: Okay limey.. I just posted your guns on militaryphotos.net and let the experts take a look.
guy is now shamed: I did not give you permission to put my intelectual property on there. %&&#!#%^&&@!!$%^%^!!!!!!!!!!
Wyrm: so you'd rather cuss than admit you're wrong.
Moderator: Wyrm, you are a bad boy. You are banned for being rude. You are mean to my BFF.

So not only am I stubborn, but threatening me just makes it worse. It's now in multiple places.

[sotoolslinger]

I wonder how that grenade launcher works

[Taiidantomcat]

Agreed. Not just ugly, non-functioning too! WAY TOO MANY MOVIES for that guy! One of my favorite lines from the show King of The Hill:
"It's not cheating to use the sights,"  need to amend that to its not cheating to HAVE sights!

Well put John, I think it ebbs and flows too. War ends: people starting looking at the sky with all these wonder weapons, new war begins Wonder weapons fail, same old lessons are re-learned (again, the hard way) and so it goes.
I was talking with one of my fellow Marines about how different US Marines look today compared to just 8 years ago. New Camo, New Armor, New Pack, Improved helmet, New Service Rifle, ACOG Scopes, New Boots. Stuff that was same old all through peace time was replaced rapidly with gear that "worked" in the war on terror. Granted there is always some evolution of equipment even through peacetime, but i would have to call this a revolution.

Europe and Australia with the SA-80 and Steyr AUG produced scoped combat rifles for their riflemen, something unheard of in the US with the exception of Special Forces, Scopes were "unneeded" and i think considered "too European" (thats just my opinion) all through peacetime. Wartime:The USMCs Standard combat rifle is the M-16A4 with various scopes mounted almost universally. In Fallujah Marines were racking up so many head shots that their were congressional inquires to see if Marines were executing insurgents after taking prisoners rather than killing them in combat...Thats what i call effective. I hope scopes are here to stay and it isn't another lesson lost to save money and equip folks with weapons like PDWs when this is over.

[dragon]

I think there is only 1 gun that is not ugly, the AK-47, and all of its predecesors, variants, relatives, etc. 

Pretty much all guns post @1890 are ugly. 

Jon

I disagree. 
I like my BROWNING HI-POWER PRACTICAL in .40 S&W but would give anything to get my hands on a classic shootable WEBLEY & SCOTT MK.IV .455 Revolver.  The S&W Model 22 in .45 ACP is a thing of beauty, as is a COLT PYTHON in .357 Magnum.     

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Pretty much all guns post @1890 are ugly.

Make that 1899 so you can include the Model 1896 Mauser pistol   A fine example of engineering and quality machine work.  Certainly one firearm that I would enjoy having in my arms room.   

I think there is only 1 gun that is not ugly, the AK-47, and all of its predecesors, variants, relatives, etc.

Depends on whether you are the shooter or the shootee.  I like the design, have a pair of them and enjoy the simplicity of the design but they are not tack drivers and quality of workmanship varies with each country.  Both of mine are from the PRC, one with the signature "bad gun" planet of the apes stock and the other with a traditional stock but no pistol grip, instead it has a lengthened trigger but it still manages to accommodate the 75 round drum magazine like the originals. 

would give anything to get my hands on a classic shootable WEBLEY & SCOTT MK.IV .455 Revolver.

Try finding ammunition to feed that beast.  I had a Webley for several years.  It had been converted to fire .45 ACP fed by three round or six round clips to retain the rimless cartridges.  It shot well when it wanted to but there were some issues with the hammer striking the primer and it was always a crap shoot when the trigger was pulled and nothing happened until you cocked it again.  This may have been due to the piece being rechambered for the .45 ACP round and not necessarily the fault of the manufacturer since the rechambering would have meant removal of metal at the rear of the cylinder to allow the .45 ACP cartridges to seat with the retaining clip attached. 

I eventually traded it away for some other things both parties were happy with that deal so it was all good.  If I had the chance to own another Webley, I would definitely do so.  Keeping it in the original .455 chambering might be a logistical challenge unless you are sitting on top of a quantity of that ammunition.  The clip feeding feature of the weapon and the unique method of ejecting all six spent casings when the pistol was opened was definitely a good feature. 

After watching the first three Indiana Jones films again the other day, I realized that Harrison Ford was also armed with a Webley, not sure if it was a .455 or .38 since they never showed him loading the pistol. 

[Maverick]

Europe and Australia with the SA-80 and Steyr AUG produced scoped combat rifles for their riflemen, something unheard of in the US with the exception of Special Forces, Scopes were "unneeded" and i think considered "too European" (thats just my opinion) all through peacetime. Wartime:The USMCs Standard combat rifle is the M-16A4 with various scopes mounted almost universally. In Fallujah Marines were racking up so many head shots that their were congressional inquires to see if Marines were executing insurgents after taking prisoners rather than killing them in combat...Thats what i call effective. I hope scopes are here to stay and it isn't another lesson lost to save money and equip folks with weapons like PDWs when this is over.

A friend who was still serving when we were issued the AUGs mentioned that during quals it became a bit of a joke, given the fact that the scope was perched up there.  A far cry from us qualifying with the SLR over open sights.  That said, I think the widespread use of scopes is a good thing, providing the basics without are still taught.  There'd be nothing worse than your scope going u/s and having no real idea of sight-picture, etc.  Mind you, the Steyr wunder-gewehr had to go thru quite a bit of refinement before it was a servicable weapon over here.  The stocks were found to crack in the heat of Australia's north. 

I've handled the AUG and must admit it's a nice little job, but the ergonomics of a mag change are horrendous.  Add to that, the hanging of an M203 off the AUG is just bizarre and tends to negate the whole 'reduced length' thing.  Much happier when I got my paws on a M4/Masterkey combo.  That was some seriously nice hardware.

As for the GL on the what-iffed SA-80, it's an odd look.  I seem to remember seeing something similar on a real-world SA-80 in the past, but can't recall the specifics.  The only way it looks to be a worker would be to have the GL barrel swing around the rifle barrel to reload or have it muzzle loaded which doesn't sound too bright.

Regards,

Mav

[Aircav]

Not sure I'd want to convert a Webley .455 to .45ACP especially as it has a break-top frame, the Webley was originally designed for blackpowder cartridges at a lower chamber pressure and I've seen a few Webley's where the steel has gone crystalline. I think Fiocchi still do .455 ammo and there is another firm that makes cases.
http://wwwasp1.nexa.it/NEIPFiocchiWeb/Estrai?COD=179
Now a mans gun is a Webley-Fosbery .455 Automatic Revolver or a Webley Self-Loading .455" Mark I, but real man would have a Gabbett-Fairfax Mars pistol  http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2008/02/21/mars-pistol-the-first-pistol-with-magazine-located-under-the-chamber/
There is some really nice pistols here
http://www.earmi.it/armi/semiautomatiche.htm

[Aircav]

As for the GL on the what-iffed SA-80, it's an odd look.  I seem to remember seeing something similar on a real-world SA-80 in the past, but can't recall the specifics.  The only way it looks to be a worker would be to have the GL barrel swing around the rifle barrel to reload or have it muzzle loaded which doesn't sound too bright.

Regards,

Mav

This is the current grenade launcher and the shorty was originally going to be the replacment SMG for vehicle crews, it got dropped thankfully, imagine firing that in a confined space and its not even worth thinking about just how many people would loose a hand.

[sotoolslinger]

My ears hour just looking at that shorty :blink:Ditto on the desire for (ANOTHER )Webley. I also owned one that had been converted to .45 ACP. it worked like a champ but I did baby it with low powered handloads (mostly ) I ended up giving it to an unarmed friend who really liked it and I cannot talk him back out of it.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Ron,

If you ever get up this way, I will allow you to fondle my Walther P5 at no charge. 

[dragon]

Ron,

If you ever get up this way, I will allow you to fondle my Walther P5 at no charge. 

Have never seen one of those in California.  For that matter, have never seen a Walther PPK in .32ACP in California (only .380ACP)

After owning a PPK, I couldn't imagine a worst choice of weapon for storming a Soviet Military base (GOLDENEYE).

[Jeffry Fontaine]

Ron,

If you ever get up this way, I will allow you to fondle my Walther P5 at no charge. 

Have never seen one of those in California.

Think P38 with full length slide or a PPK on steroids since it is chambered for 9 X 19mm.  Sweet shooter and unlike most pistols, it ejects to the left instead of the right.  Spare magazines for this pistol were going for over $85.00 each the last time I checked and it made me quite happy to have purchased all of mine in while I was in Germany.  While it closely resembles the P38, the magazines are not compatible.  Personal experience with a check to fit in my P5 demonstrated that there was indeed a difference that was sufficient to prevent complete seating in the grip and prevented the magazine from charging the weapon.   

[sotoolslinger]

MMMMM Jeffrey you do go on .I have always thought the P-5 was one of the better looking autoloaders I have fired a PPK IN .380  bites the heck out of the web of my hand(and I am a fencer)

[cthulhu77]

Personally, I still like the Ak's and their derivatives...



But, I LOVE the Hk's !!!