Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles

[Weaver]

It's possible to do a similar twin-engined setup with Citroen 2CVs.

[PR19_Kit]

...and John Cooper did it with a racing Mini Cooper S too!

They ran it in a Nurburgring 24 hr event and were running in a good position till something broke. We had the early Twini Moke at Pressed Steel to measure torque levels on both sets of drive shafts, at least that was the official reason.

Actually we just liked burning off all the local fast guys who thought they were the bee's knees. 

[Mossie]

Flying Dish Rags!  Even the standard Mini was quicker than people gave it credit for.  My Dad had a Clubman 1300 (not a Cooper) when I was a teenager, & we were driving down a long back road when a boy racer in an Escort blue past us, his mates giving us various signs out the back.  My Dad let them get ahead, dropped a gear then raced forward right up to their bumper & blew past them again.  They were gobsmacked to say the least!  My Dad had been a grass track racer & drove a Fire Engine for a living & also realised they had four big lads in & wouldn't be able to get the acceleration of the lightweight Mini.

Thread creap at it's best!

[Rheged]

Many years ago, probably late 60's, early 70's, there was a TV program where various vehicles would race down a hill, then across a swamp/bog, then back up the opposite bank.  The Stalwart was used by various groups in these races going up against Austin Champs, Land Rovers of various types, Mini Mokes (with two engines  ) and other thrown-together 4WD's.  Most times the Stawart won, but I can't remember the name of the show --- 

I think it was a twice a year  Autocross competition  between the various services motoring clubs.  There was a little Haflinger did quite well, and the old Standard Vanguard  RAF  staff car was an unexpectedly agile vehicle. On one occasion there was a Scammell recovery vehicle that  looked as though it would be overtaken by continental drift, but it ALWAYS finished, and quite often towing someone out, too.

[Mossie]

The turret makes it a little more difficult.

The 3-view drawing is quite interesting.  Gives you something to consider other than a 76mm gun armed Saladin.  Maybe a complete turret swap out for something more modern such as a Scorpion or Scimitar turret?  Or something from a Marder IFV?

I've tried a Scorpion turret on one: looks a bit lost, to be honest.

You could go the other way.  I've found a thread on Secret Projects that mentions a proposed Vickers 13 ton tank.  It would have used a Saladin turret dropped onto a modfied FV433 Abbot SPG chassis with Vigilant missiles mounted on the sides.  No pics of the 13 ton tank, although the thread contains a drawing of the similar Canadian Bobcat.  It pre-dated the Scorpion/Scimitar.
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6569.msg55736.html#msg55736

[Weaver]

Now all you've got to find is a 1/76th Abbot.....

(Yeah I know there's probably a resin one)

[Mossie]

Cromwell Models, although I'm not sure what happened to them.  They started p!ss!ng people off with unfulfilled orders then seem to have dissapeared so if you can find one, you'll be lucky.  Reading between the lines on the SP thread the hull on the Vickers 13 ton tank might have been different so might be able to modify something similar like a Scorpion or even use a M113 running gear.  If you contact UK75 on there he might be able to pull out that drawing he menitoned?

[rickshaw]

Cromwell Models, although I'm not sure what happened to them.  They started p!ss!ng people off with unfulfilled orders then seem to have dissapeared so if you can find one, you'll be lucky.  Reading between the lines on the SP thread the hull on the Vickers 13 ton tank might have been different so might be able to modify something similar like a Scorpion or even use a M113 running gear.  If you contact UK75 on there he might be able to pull out that drawing he menitoned?

From what I can gather they no longer produce an Abbott.  It appears they are also extremely difficult to track down what they do produce and to purchase.

[apophenia]

20mm and 1/76 are the same, right    If so, S&S (aka Sands Models) advertised a 20mm Abbot earlier this year.

[rickshaw]

20mm and 1/76 are the same, right    If so, S&S (aka Sands Models) advertised a 20mm Abbot earlier this year.

Not quite but close enough.  The "mm" scales are ill defined, with different designers/manufacturers using differing standards.   Some will claim "20mm" is from the bottom of the base of the figure to the eye or the head or from the feet to the head.   Putting two such manufacturer's products side-by-side its noticeable the differences.   "1/76" OTOH is an expression of a ratio and so therefore the measurements remain the same whether you use millimetres or inches.  Another way of expressing it is "4mm to the foot" and then you have the railway modeller's "HO" scale, which is actually "Half 'O' scale" (not sure what "O" scale is though).

[NARSES2]

If mixing 1/76 with 20mm be carefull. A lot of 20mm figs are nearer 25mm and look way out of scale. Stick with the smaller figure ranges and you'll be ok.

As for O scale, it was origionaly O guage and refered to a standard guage for the tracks. The scale for the trains used varied between manufacturer. Anything from 1/43 to 1/48, some designs were even 1/64.

Chris

[rickshaw]

Another problem I have, not so much with the figures but the vehicles is that when they say the vehicles are "20mm" scale - what do they mean?   Are they 1/72, 1/76 or some other realistic scale or they scaled to their figures, which as we've mentioned may be some other scale entirely? 

[Steel Penguin]

any, all, or none of the above.....
they may be consistantly scaled to a matmatical value, may be scaled to one set of figs, from one range by one sculpter, or just made from a set of plans photcopyer reduced to get the guy stood next to it to the same size as one of the figures on his table..
generaly, the vehicles will be consistant internaly on a range.. but not always.

[NARSES2]

Exactly as Steel Penguin says. 20mm vehicles will fit that manufactures figures (although I know some that dont  ) and for any other it's buyer beware

[DarrenP]

The Saracen was heavily used in Northern Ireland as part of Op Banner. More Internal security variants would have been a good devlopment. There was a few humber Pig specialist vehicles including riot screens. Saladin and Salamander water cannon's might have been interesting.