Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles

[Mossie]

Found this half track version of the Saladin on Secret Projects:

[Mossie]

Another snippet on the Saladin, from Jane's:

As originally conceived, the FV601(A) was to have had a crew of four and be armed with a 2-pounder (40 mm) gun fitted with a Littlejohn Adaptor to increase the muzzle velocity. But in February 1948 it was decided that the 2-pounder was not powerful enough so a new weapon, the 76 mm gun L5, was designed by the Armament Design Establishment at Fort Halstead but was not ready until 1953.

According to a book I have, there was a FV601A mock up, does anyone have any pics of it?  The Saladin was designed to replace the Daimler armoured car & the requirement was issued in 1946.  This could be a candidate for an extended WWII scenario (not quite '46, but nearly), if there was a more pressing need due to wartime maybe the requirement would have been issued earlier & the FV601A proceeded with until the L5 gun & FV601B was available?

[Weaver]

Here you go:

[Mossie]

Thanks Harold!  That looks like a pretty simple conversion, the only real differences apart from the gun that I can spot are the mudguard shape & the position of the headlights.  Can't tell if there are differences to the rear of course.

[Weaver]

Quite a few differences that you can't see from that angle Mossie.

1. The rear of the turret roof is sloped, as per this pre-production Mk.1:




2. The roof hatch arrangement is different, as per this early drawing with a different turret:




I think it also preserves the rear driving position, as per the drawing.

One other minor difference is that it has four smoke dischargers on the rear side turret panels, whereas production ones had six on the forward side panels.

[Mossie]

Thanks Harold, very useful!  The turret makes it a little more difficult.

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The turret makes it a little more difficult.

The 3-view drawing is quite interesting.  Gives you something to consider other than a 76mm gun armed Saladin.  Maybe a complete turret swap out for something more modern such as a Scorpion or Scimitar turret?  Or something from a Marder IFV?

[Weaver]

I've tried a Scorpion turret on one: looks a bit lost, to be honest.


Here's another handy pic:

[Weaver]

Here's a nice colour pic showing desert mods for use in Aden: colour scheme, stowage basket on turret rear and sand channels on front. If anyone's interested in modelling one of these, I've got a full set of pictures of this vehicle, so drop me a PM.

[NARSES2]

That 601 with "Pipsqueak" looks really WWII vintage whereas with the bigger gun she moves into the Cold War. Amazing the difference size can make 

Thanks for posting Harold 

[apophenia]

That 601 with "Pipsqueak" looks really WWII vintage whereas with the bigger gun she moves into the Cold War...

Keep in mind that Pipsqueak was a squeeze-bore. More akin to post-war HV guns than a garden-variety 2-pdr.

[NARSES2]

I realise that Pipsqueak was a squeezebore it's just the look of it is very 2pdr'ish. Also the British used "Squeezebores" towards the latter stages of WWII with the use of the Littlejohn Adaptor, so again in mind's eye I see WWII rather then post war. Showing my age again 

[rickshaw]

I realise that Pipsqueak was a squeezebore it's just the look of it is very 2pdr'ish. Also the British used "Squeezebores" towards the latter stages of WWII with the use of the Littlejohn Adaptor, so again in mind's eye I see WWII rather then post war. Showing my age again 

Pipsqueak I think you'll find did not use a "Littlejohn adapter".   The Littlejohn was an interesting solution to the problem of giving WWII British Armoured cars which were still primarily armed with 2 Pdr guns some extra armour penetration to make their continued use viable.  However, the users often removed them because they prevented them from firing HE which was considered more useful than AP.   After the war, HECNR was developed, which allowed squeezebore weapons to fire HE.  However, according to Tony Williams, Pipsqueak instead fired APDS - http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/37-40mm.htm

The final line of this development was the 2 PDR 'Pipsqueak', a postwar gun originally intended as the main armament for the Saladin armoured car. Although a positive link has not been made, it seems probable that the intended cartridge was the long (40x438R) 2 PDR HV (see headstamp on the right). This was designed to fire APDS rounds which would match the penetration of the 'Littlejohn' shot while still allowing HE shells to be fired. In fact the claimed performance was better, the 1,295 m/s shot penetrating 85mm of armour at 60 degrees at 900m. This gun was abandoned when a low-velocity 76mm cannon was selected instead, indicating a shift in role towards infantry fire support. Ironically, the specification is reflected in modern trends towards 30-50mm guns, firing sub-calibre armour piercing projectiles, for light AFVs.

[NARSES2]

I'm really confusing this arn't I 

I didn't mean to say that Pipsqueak used the adaptor but I did think it was a sqeezebore. Obvioulsy reading the bit about APDS I was wrong. I shall go and stand in the naughty corner until I need to go to the loo, which won't be long at my age 

[Weaver]

Well since CVR(T) came in 76mm (Scorpion) and 30mm (Scimitar) flavours, you could imagine a whiff world where they updated Saladin instead, using the same two weapons. A Saladin with the spare RARDEN out of the Airfix kit looks very like the Pipsqueak version. Maybe the Saladin version could have extra elevation, making it more suitable for anti-aircraft use. Certainly both versions would have the thermal camera (box alongside the CVR(T)'s gun).

The Scorpion 90 also proves beyond doubt (IMHO) that the Saladin could have been fitted with a 90mm Cockerill Mk.II.