An interesting Pic.

[Maverick]

Morning Gang,

Whilst doing a bit of research on USN squadrons, I came across this gun-camera pic of a VFA-11 Super Bug offing a USAF F-22.  Seems the mighty Raptor isn't the be all and end all after all.  No real surprise there.

Regards,

Mav

[Geoff]

Ooops!

[Mossie]

Oh, it can be beaten.  But at last years Red Flag the Raptor had a "shoot down" ratio of 35:1, better than LM's predictions of 32:1.  It's not invincible, two Raptor scalps were taken, but at the expense of 70 odd Aggressor aircraft.  Even if they were in visual range, the Aggressor F-15's & F-16's couldn't get a radar lock.  One of the few ways to beat it is to go to old fashioned guns, if you can find it before it finds you.

If anythings going to have a chance I'd say it be the Super Bug & updating the systems in older aircraft might even it out a bit.  As much as people hate to hear it, the F-22 is far better than anything else that can be thrown at it at the mo.  Although the F-35 might give it a run for it's money!

[gunfighter]

About that pic, I´ve read in some forums that it wasn´t a real aimed shot, but a very lucky snap shot, not a matter of how good performer is the super bug...

[Weaver]

Anything can be beaten if the pilot screws up enough. There was a case at Red Flag sometime in the early days of the F-15 where three Jaguars on a bombing mission scored two F-15s AND went on to bomb the target. This doesn't mean that the Jaguar is a better fighter than the F-15, it just means that if you're as arrogant and careless as these two apparently were, then you will lose to ANYTHING.

IIRC, Sharkey Ward relates that just before the Falklands war, 801sqn FAA Sea Harriers scored a couple of F-15s in DACT, much to the consternation of USAFE.

[nev]

And if you'd read Sharkeys account, you would know that his 2 kills consisted of pointing his nose at the F-15s several thousand feet above him and calling "kill".  Hence the USAF consternation given the lack of any kind of ACMI pod on the SHAR...Not to take anything away from Ward, he was clearly an outstanding combat pilot, but to say that he had an inflated sense of his own worth would be understatement of the century

As for the F-22, noone has ever said its unbeatable, but if you would rather go into combat in a Superbug than a Raptor, Todd might be interested in what you are smoking

[Weaver]

And if you'd read Sharkeys account, you would know that his 2 kills consisted of pointing his nose at the F-15s several thousand feet above him and calling "kill".  Hence the USAF consternation given the lack of any kind of ACMI pod on the SHAR...Not to take anything away from Ward, he was clearly an outstanding combat pilot, but to say that he had an inflated sense of his own worth would be understatement of the century

As for the F-22, noone has ever said its unbeatable, but if you would rather go into combat in a Superbug than a Raptor, Todd might be interested in what you are smoking

I'm not trying to start a SHAR vs F-15 or Superbug vs F-22 pissing contest. My point is that the picture that started this thread doesn't require any special or exceptional explanation: it's just normal air combat happening, and in normal air combat, the underdog sometimes wins. The performance and kill ratios by which fighters are judged are averages, but they're averaged over a wide range of individual outcomes, and these are much more influenced by pilot performance than raw performance figures would suggest. If a pilot uses poor tactics or loses situational awareness and thereby lets an enemy get into a killer position on him, then he's going down, whether he's flying an F-15, an F-22 or an X-Wing. Brewster Buffaloes DID shoot some Zeros down.

None of this invalidates the quality of the aircraft: a force of 100 F-22s will, on average, toast a force of 100 Superbugs with roughly equal, or even somewhat superior pilots (but some Raptors will go down in the process), just like Zeros mostly toasted Buffaloes.

[PanzerWulff]

cool pic (Buffalo defender mode ON Sorry ) As for the much Maligned Brewster Buffalo in the pacific ALL brewster Buffalo pilots American,British & Commonwealth And Dutch were all inexperienced in combat! flying against what were some of the most experienced pilots in the theater.The Japanese pilots were all Elite at the time with many years of rigorous training and more importantly Combat Experience in china and manchuria.and in the pacific the Buffalo was usually outnumbered as well Esp at MidwayThe Finnish had much greater success with the buffalo bolth against the russians and the germans
Quote from writer Rick West
"In October, 1977, I had the privilege and honor to have a few fairly lengthy conversations in a relativly private atmosphere with Greg Boyington.I remember asking him about the Brewster Buffalo (Then, Now and Always, my favorite aircraft). I had no sooner finished saying the word 'Buffalo', when he slammed his beer can down on the table, and practicaly snarled, "It was a DOG!" (His emphasis). Then he slowly leaned back in his chair and after a moment quietly said, "But the early models, before they weighed it all down with armorplate, radios and other poo-poo (with an english accent), they were pretty sweet little ships. Not real fast, but the little fecks could turn and roll in a phonebooth. Oh yeah--sweet little ship; but some engineer went and fecked it up." With that he reached for his beer and was silent again.

(sorry again Buffalo Defender mode OFF)
"Panzer"

[Weaver]

cool pic (Buffalo defender mode ON Sorry ) As for the much Maligned Brewster Buffalo in the pacific ALL brewster Buffalo pilots American,British & Commonwealth And Dutch were all inexperienced in combat! flying against what were some of the most experienced pilots in the theater.The Japanese pilots were all Elite at the time with many years of rigorous training and more importantly Combat Experience in china and manchuria.and in the pacific the Buffalo was usually outnumbered as well Esp at MidwayThe Finnish had much greater success with the buffalo bolth against the russians and the germans
Quote from writer Rick West
"In October, 1977, I had the privilege and honor to have a few fairly lengthy conversations in a relativly private atmosphere with Greg Boyington.I remember asking him about the Brewster Buffalo (Then, Now and Always, my favorite aircraft). I had no sooner finished saying the word 'Buffalo', when he slammed his beer can down on the table, and practicaly snarled, "It was a DOG!" (His emphasis). Then he slowly leaned back in his chair and after a moment quietly said, "But the early models, before they weighed it all down with armorplate, radios and other poo-poo (with an english accent), they were pretty sweet little ships. Not real fast, but the little fecks could turn and roll in a phonebooth. Oh yeah--sweet little ship; but some engineer went and fecked it up." With that he reached for his beer and was silent again.

(sorry again Buffalo Defender mode OFF)
"Panzer"

That's okay - makes my point actually: pilot quality is HIGHLY significant in outcomes. If you put an ace in a Buffalo and a newby in a Zero do NOT bet on the newby....

Another factor on top of pilot experience was ingnorance. The various western air forces didn't understand the Zero and went from dismissing it to scaremongering about it in one step. Only when one was captured and tested did it become apparent that it paid a price for it's agility and that could be exploited by the "heavy and sluggish" allied fighters with proper tactics. Funnily enough, certain good Buffalo/Wildcat/P-40 pilots had been advocating the same tactics as result of combat experience, but nobody listened to them at the time....

The ignorance factor is still utterly vital today. Nobody really knows (or admits to knowing) what the other side's ESM/ECM/ECCM can do, so whether a salvo of AMRAAMs will really slaughter a formation of Chinese Flankers or whether they'll go haywire when the PLA pilots hit the "War Mode Only" button on the ECM panel is anybody's guess.

[B777LR]

Sorry, but that picture looks a bit too much like a screenshot from a computer game...

[nev]

No, its genuine - it was posted on ARC ages ago and the F-22 guys went ape and got it taken down for "OPSEC" reasons.

It still doesn't prove anything - it might be sitting there with zero energy & dead as a dodo.  Or it might be flying through the F-18s gunsight at 800kts crossing speed, so fast its flies between the bullets.........

[viper29_ca]

Looks more like an F-15, rather than a F-22 to me.

[Shasper]

Take a look around the intake area . . . its a craptor alright (also note the "Have Glass" finish, Moldy crows dont shine like that ;-) )

That Rhino driver got Real Lucky, seeing as its slower than the Baby Bugs


Shas b)

[Svaz]

What I want to know is, when stealth becomes de rigueur, will it be a mano-a-mano, go with the guns, world again? What's the new "Radar" that will give the decided advantage?

[Maverick]

IRST units will be the stealth countermeasure in my opinion.  As they improve in capability, the airframe will still emit heat due to atmospheric friction and an IRST system tuned to that might well be able to guide weapons as a result.  That and laser tracking or some other form of optical tracking will defeat the 'non-radar' signature of the aircraft.

Regards,

Mav