Halftracks (M3, Sdkfz.251, and others) Questions and What-if Ideas?

[rickshaw]

Moving into a new house this week......

Unfortunately what this past week yielded includes a failed attempt to produce a mental note on a Cromwell hull combined with Sd.Kfz. 251 nose and Comet turret (because I, amongst other reasons, chose to use the unfamiliar Paint  ), hoping for something similar in style to the Selbstfahrlafette II......

Since I said "failed", I'm not entirely happy with the result- the hull looks to me a bit over-elongated, and the front wheel probably could be bigger......

Maybe I'll try again sometime after the move is more-complete......

Comments and suggestions are welcomed as usual though.

You do realise that the Cromwell hull is too narrow for the Comet turret?  The whole reason why they developed the Comet was because the Cromwell turret ring was too small for the 77mm (actually 76.2mm) Vickers HV gun.

I'd have to ask what would be the point of putting a half-track forward hull on a tank hull?  The tank is manoeuvrable enough in itself and all the wheels at the front would be doing is wasting rubber.

[dy031101]

You do realise that the Cromwell hull is too narrow for the Comet turret?  The whole reason why they developed the Comet was because the Cromwell turret ring was too small for the 77mm (actually 76.2mm) Vickers HV gun.

Assuming the same kind of design change the Avenger tank destroyer went through.

I'd have to ask what would be the point of putting a half-track forward hull on a tank hull?  The tank is manoeuvrable enough in itself and all the wheels at the front would be doing is wasting rubber.

Supposedly for the asthetics' sake.

Germany played around with the idea of a turreted halftrack tank destroyer for a while, too......

[rickshaw]

You do realise that the Cromwell hull is too narrow for the Comet turret?  The whole reason why they developed the Comet was because the Cromwell turret ring was too small for the 77mm (actually 76.2mm) Vickers HV gun.

Assuming the same kind of design change the Avenger tank destroyer went through.

Basically, yes.  The Avenger mounted a 17 Pdr, which required a bigger turret ring again, over that required for the 77mm.  IIRC it however drew its lineage also from the Cromwell rather than the Comet though, and was really a parallel development (with cross-seeding) of the Comet.

I'd have to ask what would be the point of putting a half-track forward hull on a tank hull?  The tank is manoeuvrable enough in itself and all the wheels at the front would be doing is wasting rubber.

Supposedly for the asthetics' sake.

Germany played around with the idea of a turreted halftrack tank destroyer for a while, too......

They built exactly two of those vehicles, both served in North Africa and they were not a success.  They were actually classed as "Cavalry vehicles".   The idea of a half-track is that it is meant to be cheaper than a fully-tracked solution.  That wasn't necessarily the case with the German ones - they relied too much on the use of (expensive) torsion bar and needle bearing technologies, unlike the US ones which were basically converted truck chassis. 

[dy031101]

What I meant is that I made the attempt with Cromwell hull knowing it will be widened for the purpose- but then I did neglect to mention.  

The idea of a half-track is that it is meant to be cheaper than a fully-tracked solution.  That wasn't necessarily the case with the German ones - they relied too much on the use of (expensive) torsion bar and needle bearing technologies, unlike the US ones which were basically converted truck chassis.

So...... I take it that a truck chassis can also be lengthened and/or widened if a decent gun is desired for the cavalry tank development?

The suspension for the tracks might be like Panzer 38(t)'s leaf spring with large road wheels, giving an impression of a Christie-type one.

[rickshaw]

The idea of a half-track is that it is meant to be cheaper than a fully-tracked solution.  That wasn't necessarily the case with the German ones - they relied too much on the use of (expensive) torsion bar and needle bearing technologies, unlike the US ones which were basically converted truck chassis.

So...... I take it that a truck chassis can also be lengthened and/or widened if a decent gun is desired for the cavalry tank development?

It would be a second best solution.  Mobility would be better than a standard truck but considerably worse than a fully-tracked chassis.  Adding armour would make it worse again as the Germans found with their Maultier half-tracks when they armoured them.   The American White half-tracks were designed with armour from the outset, so their suspension was designed to take the armour they carried (not that it was much).  Without armour, a soft-skin is pretty much dead meat on the battlefield (hence the term "soft-skin") as any shell fragments can penetrate it easily and it is shell fragments which do the killing.   The US utilised half-tracks when they first entered the war as SPGs and they abandoned them ASAP.   The Israeli effort with the 90mm was a temporary measure and was originally intended to be used dismounted with a secondary ability to be used enportee.  The Germans used them but that was more out of desperation than a belief they were a good idea.  So, I'd expect to see them utilised because of a lack of anything better, than necessarily they are the preferred solution.   I'd also expect to see them look somewhat like a lashup, than anything else.

[Weaver]

The link to Kubelwagen half-tracks that JCF provided a while ago is broken now, so I'll post this pic I found:



From here: http://strangevehicles.greyfalcon.us/Picturesc/image043.png

[raafif]

That guy took it  from my old webpage on the Typ-155 Kübel that I did for the V.W Archiv ....
http://web.archive.org/web/20090730170305/http://geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/1167/evwtrack.html

Geocities went bankrupt but much of their stuff is still archived by someone else.

[ChernayaAkula]

That Kübelwagen half-track is pretty neat!  Maybe one could build a trailer of some sort also utilizing this tracked drive and - hey, presto! - there you are, your own WWII Hägglunds BV 206. 

[Mossie]

Another Kubel with a different style of track, found here:
http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Volkswagen/



Talking of VW's, here's a camper conversion:

[Mossie]

Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost halftrack, apparently Lenin's personal vehicle.  Note the skis on the front wheels.
http://www.prewarbuick.com/features/

'This is an Alpine Eagle conversion for Russian winter roads, said to have been made especially for one Mr. Lenin back in the early '20s. The base vehicle [can you really use that term for a Rolls?] was confiscated from some member of the Russian nobility and equipped with the so-called 'Kregresse drive' -- a hang-on device converting any car to a halftrack 'Kegresse audosledge'. (Adolphe Kegresse, born French, lived in Russia and served as a consulting engineer to one of our former imperial departments. He was the very man behind the later Citroen half-track lories upon returning to his native France [see next pic below].) The car still exists and is kept in one of the still-numerous Lenin museums. RR Silver Ghost was a very popular vehicle amid the motorized Russian nobility, being a well-built and tough chariot, quite capable of withstanding our awful running conditions -- even in winter. The Czar himself had a limo on this chassis. By the way, the original Alpine Eagle tourer was a 1914 model.'

[The Wooksta!]

Kora do a 72nd Kubel half track.  I've got one somewhere.

[raafif]

Think the Kora one has photo-etch suspension & tracks ? Some-one else did it in resin very recently too -- both kits have some minor accuracy issues.

Here's more from my article ...
the original one -- the Tzar's Packard, built by Kegresse ........ and a Scania-Vabis hotel-taxi circa 1935.

[Weaver]

Mad thought: how about a hot-rodded half-track? Jack the back end of an M3 up by re-arranging the track gear, then give it a big supercharger, long chrome exhausts and a flame paint job? 

[raafif]

there is Rommel's Rod by Revell .... and then there's this real one ....

[Weaver]

Hey cheers Raafif - that's a good one!

I know about Rommel's Rod and it's good, but I was thinking more about a pimped war-surplus troop carrier type than a staff car type.

Here's a Lego one that's different again (more US truck-like):



From here: http://www.brothers-brick.com/2009/05/01/sariel-goes-on-a-crusade/