Panzer IV

dy031101 · December 20, 2008, 01:40:28 PM

How large is Panzer IV's turret compared to the turret of the Sherman?

Did M-50 use new-build turret? (Wikipedia states that M-50 were modified from the original Shermans with 75mm HE gun turrets.)

Maverick · December 20, 2008, 02:25:26 PM

Dy,

Whilst I can't quote the turret sizes, I'd think the Pz IV had a larger turret ring.

As for the Israelis, the Sherman went through a few changes in its various models fielded by them. I believe they all used turrets available in the Sherman production line, but upgunned, etc to their specific needs.

Regards,

Mav

dy031101 · December 20, 2008, 04:09:17 PM

Achtung Panzer website does say that there was an attempt to mount a "narrow turret" from the Panther onto a Panzer IV, an exercise which "overburndens the chassis".

The Israeli managed to mount the French development into the Sherman turret...... maybe they modified the manlet, and maybe the French did make the gun lighter and more compact......

Just my guesses.

cthulhu77 · December 20, 2008, 04:24:52 PM

Watching the series "tank overhaul" on the military channel has really impressed me with just how much of a bugger all it was to build these things.

jcf · December 20, 2008, 06:47:15 PM

Quote from: rallymodeller on December 20, 2008, 11:16:28 AM
Ooh! Kugelblitz! The first modern SPAAG!

Mmm... how so?

Jon

Maverick · December 20, 2008, 08:18:11 PM

Quote from: dy031101 on December 20, 2008, 04:09:17 PM
Achtung Panzer website does say that there was an attempt to mount a "narrow turret" from the Panther onto a Panzer IV, an exercise which "overburndens the chassis".

The Israeli managed to mount the French development into the Sherman turret...... maybe they modified the manlet, and maybe the French did make the gun lighter and more compact......

Just my guesses.

Regarding the 'narrow turret' there was a suggestion at mounting the Panther Ausf F's 'schmalturm' onto Pz IV chassis for some reason or other. Seems a bit odd to me though, given the IV was definitely old-school in comparison to the Panther.

As for the French turret for the Israelis, it was an FL-10 as used on their AMX-13. The Israelis used the AMX-13 but I'm unsure of the reason for transferring the turrets to the Shermans, possibly it was due to maintenance or wear issues with the much smaller AMX-13.

Regards,

Mav

philp · December 20, 2008, 09:17:40 PM

Mav,
The Shermans with the AMX turret were actually fielded by the Egyptians giving the firepower of the light tank to the Sherman's greater (although, not that great) armor without having to redesign the turret like the Israeli's did.

The M-50 used the older Sherman turret with an extension for the mantlet to allow the gun to fit and a counterweight at the rear of the turret.

The M-51 used the later style turret as on the Easy-8 and still had to add a counterweight at the back of the turret.

GTX · December 20, 2008, 10:18:54 PM

Quote from: Maverick on December 20, 2008, 08:18:11 PM
Quote from: dy031101 on December 20, 2008, 04:09:17 PM
Achtung Panzer website does say that there was an attempt to mount a "narrow turret" from the Panther onto a Panzer IV, an exercise which "overburndens the chassis".

Regarding the 'narrow turret' there was a suggestion at mounting the Panther Ausf F's 'schmalturm' onto Pz IV chassis for some reason or other. Seems a bit odd to me though, given the IV was definitely old-school in comparison to the Panther.

Regards,

Mav

That would be this one:

Regards,

Greg

Maverick · December 20, 2008, 10:34:46 PM

Phil,

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware it was an Egyptian fielding. I knew the Israelis had used the AMX-13 and assumed (obviously incorrectly) that the combo was an IDF one. At least I was on target with the turrets I guess for the later Shermans.

Greg, is that to scale? The Schmalturm was a much smaller turret than the standard Panther one and I wouldn't have thought it was so big compared to the Pz IV hull.

Regards,

Mav

GTX · December 21, 2008, 09:08:21 AM

Yep - its to scale.

Regards,

Greg

Maverick · December 21, 2008, 11:33:28 AM

Fair enough then. Just looks way bigger than I'd have expected given the size of the Schmalturm on a Panther hull.

Regards,

Mav

starship1 · December 21, 2008, 11:54:53 AM

The 38(t) might work at that. May have to be wider to handle the 4's wider track though.

dy031101 · April 30, 2009, 12:44:53 PM

As I looked for pictures of the Panzer IV to assist on an unrelated project (see here), it would appear that the gun mantlet contains the installations for the main gun and the co-axial MG......

Would someone please point out where the sighting device for the tank's main gun is located?

In an off-topic question, does anyone know where the main gun sight would be when the Germans look their long-barrel 75mm gun to re-arm captured KV-1s during WWII?

Thanks in advance.

dy031101 · May 09, 2009, 09:37:54 PM

Geschutzwagen III/IV, the chassis of the Nashorn SPATG and Hummel SPH, combines the driving and steering mechanism of the Panzer III with the engine (which appears to be the same or derived from that of the Panzer III anyway) and suspension of the Panzer IV but is longer and supposedly has more room than both......

I wonder how much potential could have been displayed if a battle tank were built based on the chassis......

Sauragnmon · May 10, 2009, 07:12:05 AM

I'd say there's a fair ammount of promise in a hull like that... you could probably do an Alt-Panther on it - slope the wall a little bit more, shorten it, put the flat deck up so you've got the turret mounting. Slope the sides in so you've got enhanced protection, put the turret in the middle, but she'd still be rather rearward mounted. You've got plenty of ammo storage for the 75mm in there, though you might want to thicken up the plates a little on the walls so there's protection over the munitions. Might need to uprate the engine a little, but she'd certainly be interesting to see done.