RAR Leopard 2A6 WHIF

[barraxr8]

It would have been crazy to have bought tanks for "the boys to play with".

Here's a good link on their capabilty:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4879

A quote from the Australian Army magazine on Australia's new M1A1 Abrams below (from above):

"The tank is an M1A1 AIM SA (Abrams integrated management situational awareness), one of the most advanced of the Abrams main battle tanks. It is one of only a small number of vehicles in the world of such a configuration, all of which are Australian.

The M1A1 AIM SA features enhancements such as second-generation FLIR, an inertial navigation system in addition to the global positioning system, an auxiliary power unit, infantry/tank telephone, far target locator, and the Force XXI Battle Command Brigade and Below (FBCB2) battlefield management system. Modified for Australian conditions, the tank has crew cooling fans and a refrigeration unit, and can fit a deep-water fording kit.

The armour package of the Australian Abrams is among the most advanced in the world.
The US Armor Symposium is attended by a large audience of senior US military officers, armoured-vehicle users and procurement personnel. The event is intended to communicate the importance of the newest technology in relation to security, education, training, and awareness for US military members.

The US Army will seek to adopt many features of the Australian variants for introduction to their own Abrams fleet."

Now if they were Leo 2A6M's....................

[Maverick]

Whilst I certainly agree that it would have been a silly idea, it wouldn't have surprised me just as much.  Whilst the M1 is undoubtedly a fine machine, I do wonder about the hype surrounding it from an Australian standpoint and have heard things which might or might not be negative criticism because of it's US origins, because of the failed Leo 2 deal or just genuine problems that are conveniently overlooked by those willing to take the purchase onboard.  I guess the main question is "was it bought on its merits vs the Leo 2?"  That unfortunately is a question that can be fielded by pro-M1 people or pro-Leo 2 people equally well and I've heard much for either case.  I have to say that either platform is a capable one, dependant on the package that the ARA has gotten.  The general consensus does seem to be that the 1st Armoured would have preferred Leo 2s if only 'unofficially'.

Regards,

Mav

[barraxr8]

I think it was the 'good deal' that ended up being the most critical part of the decision Mav.

From what I undertand, although the Swiss Panzer 2 derivative and the M1A1 were the last two left in the 'final', there was a real push for the Leopard 2A5 from some quarters.

Hey Canadians can't be THAT wrong can they  ?

Now if you're a keen 'Leopard man' like me, you'd like this Canadian beast also:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v101/He219/dailypix/militarypix/fresh/more/more/even%20more/AR2006-P022-0042.jpg

http://img.blog.yahoo.co.kr/ybi/1/24/56/shinecommerce/folder/6/img_6_19087_0?1214614232.jpg

Although they are about to all be decommisioned (re: scrapped probably), you can't say that the C2 Mexas isn't a cool looking beast ! Apparently the Taliban call it the "Super Beast". 

[PanzerWulff]

I would have to say one of the #1 points going for the Leo 2 over the Abrams is the powerplant,it gives the Leo good speed & fuel mileage.sure the abrams has speed and can "supposedly" run on any fuel type but it is such a gas hog that it needs to be refueled every 2 hours or so in combat Like 1 military history specialist said "When you bring abrams to war your'e fighting with one foot in a bucket" which is too bad as I realy like the abrams,Leo 2,Challenger 2,Type 90 & even the K1A1 
"Panzer"

[GTX]

I would have to say one of the #1 points going for the Leo 2 over the Abrams is the powerplant,it gives the Leo good speed & fuel mileage.sure the abrams has speed and can "supposedly" run on any fuel type but it is such a gas hog that it needs to be refueled every 2 hours or so in combat Like 1 military history specialist said "When you bring abrams to war your'e fighting with one foot in a bucket" which is too bad as I realy like the abrams,Leo 2,Challenger 2,Type 90 & even the K1A1 
"Panzer"

Interestingly enough, General Dynamics did  develop and trial a diesel-powered M1A2 back around 2000 - it was offered to Turkey and Greece if I recall.  The engine was the German MTU 883 1,500-horsepower diesel engine.  Would have been interesting if it was taken up by Australia or others instead of the AGT-1500 (mind you the Australian selection of this engine is beneficial to me from a work aspect).

Regards,

Greg

[barraxr8]

Yeah Panzer, Dr Aryeh Nusbacher is quite the military historian. He's right about the Abrams !

That thing likes a drink  

[GTX]

I certainly wasn't aware of the Abrams being of that level.  Most of what I'd seen had suggested that they were 'something for the boys to play with' rather than a serious replacement for our Leos.  Greg (GTX) suggested that we'd actually take charge of US vehicles in the event that we deployed, given that we only tend to play with Uncle Sam anway.

Regards,

Mav

Don't get me wrong here - I don't mean to say that the ARA M1s are only "toys for the boys".  Rather it has been postulated that one of the key drivers behind the selection of the M1 over the other competitors was commonality with the US army and that it was in fact conceivable that a future conflict (say North Korea) could involve a deployment of Australian operators that would use pre-positioned US tanks rather than shipping of our own to the war zone.

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

BTW, welcome aboard Paul - nice entrance.

Regards,

Greg

[barraxr8]

Thanks Greg !

We'll have fun here I think

 

Paul

[GTX]

BTW, speaking of the M1s - there was a very nice model of the M1 in Saab Barracuda camouflage/signature control system at the recent Land Warfare Conference - didn't get a picture sorry, but it does look very similar to this:



Regards,

Greg

[barraxr8]

BTW, speaking of the M1s - there was a very nice model of the M1 in Saab Barracuda camouflage/signature control system at the recent Land Warfare Conference - didn't get a picture sorry, but it does look very similar to this:



Regards,

Greg

Nice Greg !

Thanks for the pic !

I'm in the process of doing the 'coated optic vision blocks' for my 2A5. I'm using irridescent film to get the right look. I must say it's working brilliantly !!

I'll post pics when done. This 'optics' build will be a good learning experience for my 'Monster' Aussie 2A6   

[Maverick]

There's certainly some interesting packages around for the Leo 2 to be sure.  I think every modern tank has their own appeal, although the Russian stuff tends to look a bit 'samey'.  Chally, Leo 2, Abrams and, yes, the K1A1 all have their own 'flavour' although the Abrams use of a gas turbine does tend to make one scratch one's head.  As for taking any of them into battle, let's just hope the next 'bad guys' are as ill-equipped as the last lot were.... Otherwise we might find out how 'good' or otherwise these beasts are.

Regards,

Mav

[barraxr8]

Good point about potential opposition.

I'm partial to a bit of a 'fun sledge' at the Russian guys on "You-tube' about their T-90's, but in fact it is a very reasonable solution.

The question is about their conscript forces and how well motivated / trained they are. But in general modern Russian armor is quite interesting, although in theory no match for a M1A2 SEP or Leopard 2A6 in the 'right conditions'.



Paul

[Maverick]

In truth, training is a key factor regardless of the capabilities of the equipment, the Falkands was a fairly good example of that.  As for the quality of conscript forces, that's two-edged with Israel & Sweden being fairly good examples of 'high quality' concripts as opposed to many others.

Regards,

Mav

[barraxr8]

In truth, training is a key factor regardless of the capabilities of the equipment, the Falkands was a fairly good example of that.  As for the quality of conscript forces, that's two-edged with Israel & Sweden being fairly good examples of 'high quality' concripts as opposed to many others.

Regards,

Mav

Agree Mav,

part of that quality aspect is also renumeration and motivation too 

Paul