Fight! Fight! Fight! (Canada's Fixed Wing SAR competition)

[GTX]

Something I just found:



Also see here.

Regards,

Greg

[GTX]

And what exactly would you do once you've landed your Caribou/Buffalo in 80 meters somewhere between Sydney and Perth, more than 1500 km from the nearest civilization?? I fail to get your point, if Australia is so barren, why can you not just land a C-27? Or a C-5? Or a 747? huh

The RAAF requirement is based around the need to operate in many very short runways in Northern Australia and places like PNG where other non-STOL fixed wing aircraft simply cannot land - the country isn't barren in the sense that you can land anywhere!!!  Helicopters don't provide the payload/range capability either.

Please don't think I'm calling for the 'Bou to be kept (they need replacing or updating) or that the C-27J is a bad choice (it's got a lot going for it).  The main problem is that there is nothing available on the market which allows for a similar modern day capability.  If the C-27J was provided a better STOL capability it would be a great selection that would IMHO find a lot of interested parties.

Regards,

Greg

[rallymodeller]

Let the Caribou and Buffalo go. They were great, but they are outdated, and are being outperformed by newer planes. There is only a requirement for some 20 - 30 new-built aircraft, for use of their STOL performance. The Air Forces that operate them, including Canada, Australia and the US Army, have all opted not to go for more DHC-5s. Most are now flying in 3rd world countries.

That's just it. Buffs and Bous aren't outperformed by newer types. There are very few aircraft in the world that have the capabilities of the Buffalo -- and none of them have been produced in a long time. The Buffalo is a true STOL aircraft, which neither the C-295 nor the C-27J can claim to be. Each of them is a rough-field aircraft, There is a difference. We're talking near Turbo-Porter performance in an aircraft that can haul three times as much. Even the Antonov quadruplets (An-24/26/28/31) have less impressive STOL. The US Army retired it's C-7 Caribous and never bought Buffalos (perhaps a streak of "not made here") and then found a need for them in the Eighties which they filled with Shorts Sherpas

In addition, the Buffalo's crosswind limits are far in excess of even the C-130's. For that matter, so is the Dash-8's. In the Arctic that is sometimes an issue -- when you only have one landing strip and the wind is coming across it -- an issue that remains unsolved and is one of the reasons they have not been replaced up to now.

It would serve the Canadian aircraft industry better to have Viking crack out the Buffalo tooling and make those 30 new-builds than to buy Italian-built C-27s. The per-unit price estimated by Viking is well under what EADS is selling the C-27 for. For that low price you get a new aircraft with unique performance, modern avionics and service crew familiarity.

Being old is not a demerit in some fields of aviation. After all, the basic design of the Hercules is older than the Caribou/Buffalo, and nobody is saying they're obsolete...

[Captain Canada]

Ya, you tell 'em, Rally ! I'd love to see more Buffalos. A beautiful and very capapble aeroplane.

[B777LR]

Official announcement:

The day full production of new-built DHC-5s begins, i will build a Starfix Bf-109. The kit will be ordered tonight...

[kitnut617]

I've read that the C-27 got the order because of engine commonality with the newly ordered C-130J's.  I think if that is the rational then get new-build Buffalos with these C-130J engines, it will create work here and not elsewhere.

This has given me a new idea, I have a 1/72 Buffalo vac kit and some of Jennifer Wrights beautiful C-130J engine nacelle replacements, I might just get some more and put them on the Buffalo.

[GINge!]

. In the Arctic that is sometimes an issue -- when you only have one landing strip and the wind is coming across it -- an issue that remains unsolved and is one of the reasons they have not been replaced up to now.

Might be easier and cheaper to build runways perpendicular to the existing ones?

I have to fly into Iqaluit, NU next week... at least that's ona B737. The air recce I have to do is in a twotter though...hoepfully the xwinds aren't too bad

[nev]

There wont ever be a need for an aircraft with the STOL capabilities of the Caribou

You've never been to Australia have you?  Perth to Sydney is the same distance as London to Moscow and 99% of it is unihabited wilderness.  Like Rally says, Oz and Canuckistan are pretty unique. 

And what exactly would you do once you've landed your Caribou/Buffalo in 80 meters somewhere between Sydney and Perth, more than 1500 km from the nearest civilization?? I fail to get your point, if Australia is so barren, why can you not just land a C-27? Or a C-5? Or a 747?

In the event of invasion, the australian Australian defence plan revolves around retreating into the interior.  Gotta move and supply them troops somehow.

[cc115]

Hi there Gentlemen.

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here. As a currently serving CC-115 Buffalo Flight Engineer in the CF, there is no questioning my love and loyalty to the machine. She is one fun airplane to fly in. There is nothing better than doing a valley shoot between two mountain peaks, at 90 knots, full flaps down, and gear extended. There also is no other feeling than doing a STOL landing, and seeing the machine come to a halt, with minimum runway usage. She also handles the austere fields well (As in the high North, on Ellesmere Island). But, there comes a time in life where age and lack of parts hamper her serviceability. Something must be done about that.

On to that subject. Everyone says that the only replacement for a Buffalo, is another Buffalo. I would agree with you, if the following could be done:
1. The aircraft must become pressurized (probably the biggest issue with the machine);
2. It needs to be able to carry a standard CC-130 Hercules cargo pallet (won't happen with the current cargo compartment dimensions); and
3. You would need probably upwards of 40 plus machines to cover the CC-130 Hercules SAR/TSPT regions.

WIth the impending arrival of the CC-130J, the powers to be are looking at commonality. With the C-27J Spartan, you get that with the engines and avionics, as both are the same. You'd also get an airplane that can do approximately 70% of what a CC-130 could do. There in lies the rub. If a CC-130 couldn't make a tasking, they could substitute with the C-27J. You'd need roughly, according to the amount of weight I have carried in the CC-115, at least 3 115's to carry out a 130 mission.

The various contenders. I had the priviledge of flying on two of the contenders. Had roughly 3 hours flying time on both. The C-27J and the CASA C-295. My opinion; "forget the 295". Just another airliner type aircraft, with little room growth. Does not have the STOL capability of the C-27, or CC-115. The C-27J, has room for growth, can carry at least 3 CC-130 pallets, and has somewhat of a relatively good STOL performance. Not as good as the CC-115, as the 115 does it all with great lift, but good enough. The DASH-8. Forget it. That is just another make work project for a company that already has soaked up enough of the Canadian taxpayers money. New Buffalo's!! I wish, but I don't think it will happen. The argument of investing in a Canadian company. I don't buy into it. It is about time the military stops being a social and make work outfit. Get the best bang for your buck.

Once again. I'm in extremely in love with the CC-115 Buffalo, and wish that she could remain in service and I could fly her until I retire. But. I'm afraid that is not going to happen.

All of the above, are my opinons and my opinions ONLY!! I don not speak for DND/CF

[Captain Canada]

You might not speak for the DND, but you do speak the truth !

[rallymodeller]

Sir, your opinions are most welcomed! It's always good to have a knowledgeable source.

Interesting point re pressurization: I honestly hadn't thought of that. Since you SAR guys spend so much time down low I forgot that transits are better made up high. The commonality between the Spartan and the Herc as regards cargo pallets is also valuable, and I'm sure that this was a deal-sealer.

But as this is a What-If board, I ask you to put on your enthusiast civilian hat and answer this: given an ideal world what would you choose as a Buff replacement? Is the C-27J what is needed, or would something else entirely fit the bill better?

[cc115]

Rallymodeller:

As a civilian in an ideal world, my opinion, the C-27J would be the best Buffalo replacement.

[apophenia]

Okay, in Whiffery, too much reality is obviously a conversation killer! 

[The Rat]

SHEEEEEYAT, them's gorgeous! 

[Green Dragon]

Great pics, really can't understand why they've not done ramps on the Dash 8 and the Dash7. I'm a big fan of the Sukhoi Su80 too!

Paul Harrison