DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow

Weaver · January 27, 2009, 03:15:41 AM

Pre-war, Fokker seemed to be getting interested in twin booms (G.1 & D.XXIII) and push-pull engines (D.XXIII). These configureations favour early jets and mixed power, so had WWII not spoilt the party (say in Patchwork World) you might have seen a twin-boom Fokker with a round fuselage, a tractor prop and a pusher jet.

You can get something like this using an old Frog/Novo Sea Venom and an Airfix Zero, of all things. Replace the Sea Venom's radome with the Zero's engine (the fuselage diameter's too small for a bigger one), plate over the sides of the cockpit and fit the Zero's canopy which, with it's multi-framed flat panels, looks "Fokkerish" and it's no more anachronistic than the Meteor NF.11's greenhouse. (if you've built the Matchbox/Extrakit Meatbox as an NF.14 you'll have a spare NF.11 canopy of course, which would be interesting....). It would probably need bigger fins too: you could use the Zero's tailplanes, but triangular Me-262 ones would again be more Fokkerish.

Not sure about prop clearance: might need longer gear.

Miles proposed something like this as a long-range escort fighter: small piston engine for max range, big jet for max combat speed.

kitnut617 · January 27, 2009, 06:07:49 AM

or like this little puppy:

GTX · February 20, 2009, 04:17:33 PM

Quote from: Daryl J. on February 20, 2009, 03:54:46 PM
How about a canopy free Venom UAV?

Daryl J.

Ask and yea shall receive - in Swedish markings no less:

Regards,

Greg

Daryl J. · February 21, 2009, 09:48:48 AM

A reality based question: What are decent references for the twin tailed D.H. aircraft?

And back into whiffland...

Sea Venom used for air to ground in Vietnam, USAF
Sea Venom with rounded bits replaced with ogival pointed bits
Sea Venom racer sponsored by Uncle Bob's Trucking ( can you tell I do not like that windscreen???)
Single seat Venom based on the FB.4 in overall gloss sea blue with folding wings, USMC
Any Vampire, Venom in Raspberry Ripple

kitnut617 · February 21, 2009, 10:29:55 AM

Quote from: Daryl J. on February 21, 2009, 09:48:48 AM
A reality based question: What are decent references for the twin tailed D.H. aircraft?

There's a book I've got called 'de Havillland Twin Booms- Vampire, Venom and Sea Vixen' written by Adrian Balch, Airlife Publishing Ltd, ISBN 1-84037-250-8. It was aound GBP 13 when I bought it. This book is filled with colour photos of all these aircraft and though isn't a comprehensive history, it does go into it a bit. Then there's the Putman book, De Havilland since 1909 by A.J.Jackson.

Daryl J. · February 21, 2009, 09:31:39 PM

A drawing from the interweb modified to show my plans for the CA Sea Venom.

Image printed and modified to show the ogival nose, pointed fuel tanks, pointed shroud over the tailpipe, and pointed bullet fairings on the tail. Plans are to paint the machine white and use hi-viz markings. Unit is to be determined.

Credit to whom credit is due for the initial line drawings.
As I have no whiteout, the FB.1 Venom still has its canopy although the contour line is drawn in for the canopy removal and fairing on the Venom FB.UAV (or whatever designation it gets).

Daryl J.

Daryl J. · February 28, 2009, 10:59:47 AM

What was the capacity of the Sea Venom as compared to the Cessna Tweet?
In other words, is it possible to reasonably make a Sea Venom into a reasonable, light ground pounder.

TIA,
Daryl J., itching to get the CA Sea Venom in hand

PR19_Kit · February 28, 2009, 02:00:17 PM

Quote from: Daryl J. on February 28, 2009, 10:59:47 AM
In other words, is it possible to reasonably make a Sea Venom into a reasonable, light ground pounder.

Daryl,

A Sea Venom, or an ordinary Venom even, would make a reasonable heavy ground pounder.

It weighed just about twice as much as a T-37!

Mossie · March 01, 2009, 07:19:15 AM

There were Fighter Bomber variants of the Venom. The Sea Venom, although primarily a fighter, carried out a ground pounding role in Suez. It had four pylons & could carry a reasonable amount of ordnance. Pics I've seen of bombed up Venoms seem to show a lighter load then those you see carried by the A-37. I think the T-37 was capable of carrying 2x 500lb bombs. Wiki lists the Venoms armament as 2x 1000lb bombs or 8x 60lb rockets (although in pics it often seen carrying just four).

Daryl J. · March 04, 2009, 06:46:39 PM

Would a wing extension on the Vampire result in it being able to fly higher? Aerodynamic laws are foreign to me, but the discussion above regarding a PR variant got me wondering a bit about it. The Vampire specifically in mind is the CA T.11 kit with wing extensions and winglets with some under wing pods either for fuel or sensing equipment and enlarged, powered control surfaces.

So is that a reasonable whiffer? It's just too expensive to make into a flying easter egg.

Daryl J.

PR19_Kit · March 05, 2009, 02:39:07 AM

Daryl,

That sounds perfectly feasable, and why not, this IS Whiffland after all.

And any a/c looks better with longer wings. (That's 'Kit's Rule of Whiffing #1' BTW.....)

Mind you, a Vampire of any mark with winglets boggles the mind, that's about a 60 year technology time warp you're proposing there........

Mossie · March 05, 2009, 02:49:50 AM

Vampire TG278 had extended wing tips & attained the then world altitude record of over 59,000ft. It never went into production. It was an F.1 with the extended tips, a metal main canopy & a slightly enlarged engine bay to take a Ghost engine (used in the Venom). I imagine that with the Canberra's exceptional ceiling, the RAF didn't feel the need for a PR Vampire.

You could do a standard Vampire with TG278's wing, or if you really wanted to create an operational variant of TG278, you could go the whole hog & fit a Venom body to a Vampire wing, even adding larger tanks for extended loiter time.

There's some more on Secret Projects:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,6073.0/highlight,vampire.html

Article on the Flight archive:
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1948/1948%20-%200198.html

Pics here:
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2911.htm
http://1000aircraftphotos.com/APS/2913.htm

JayBee · March 05, 2009, 04:07:23 AM

TG278 had a four foot extension to each wing tip, and on March 23rd 1948 established a new absolute altitude record of 59,446 ft.
It did have one slight problem when it landed, one of the main u/c oleos was frozen in the extended position. I have a free DVD that was given with Aeroplane Monthly some time ago with film footage of her taxying in with a very lopsided stance.
Here is a photo of her in flight, scanned from the Putnam book, De Havilland aircraft, since 1909, by A J Jackson.

Mossie · January 19, 2010, 03:55:22 PM

I've just picked up the Crowood book on the Vampire, Venom & Sea Vixen, a quick flick through has brought up a few snippets. Sea Venoms were instrumental in the first trials for IR missile guidance systems & later, three Sea Venoms were fitted for Blue Jay/Firestreak. The guidance equipment took the place of the guns & pylons were mounted just inside of the wing fold. Apparantley they acquitted themselves well, the missiles were destined it's big sister, the Sea Vixen.

There were a few potential operators too:

Ceylon: Five Vampire T.55's were delivered to the Royal Ceylon Air Force, although the base commander thought the aircraft were too ambitious & they were returned to the UK having never left their crates.

Portugal: Portugal obtained two Vampire T.55's for evaluation. They decided to order the T-33 instead, but kept the two Vampires for eight years. So they did operate the type, but it didn't figure in military planning.
Profile: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww3/f/169/11/0

Katanga: At the end of their life, the two Portugeuse Vampires were passed to Katanga. They were in such poor condition that they never flew & were kept out in the open. They were destroyed when strafed by Indian Canberra's as part of the UN action.

Japan: The JASDF took a single Vampire T.55 for evaluation. Similar to Portugal, they kept the evaluation aircraft, but the type was not ordered (the JASDF also took the T-33). It's apparentley displayed at Hammamatsu were it was operated.
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jasdf_vampire_trainer.JPG

Saudi Arabia: Was given a number of Vampire FB.52's by Egypt as a good-will gesture between the two countries. This gave the RSAF chance to familiarise with turbojet aircraft until they received T-33's & F-86's a year later when they stopped operating the Vampire, probably due to lack of spares.
Profile: http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww3/f/169/25/0/1

Weaver · January 19, 2010, 08:07:30 PM

Here's a thought: the Swiss built some photo-recce single-seat Venoms that carried their cameras in the noses of two underwing fuel tanks. Not a bad solution for a space-challenged single seater, but it's draggy and you can't drop the tanks without losing the cameras too.

So as an alternative, how about a photo-recce Sea Venom? It could carry the cameras in the nose in place of the radar (loads of room) and the nose cone could actually be more pointed and aerodynamic. It could also have a Sea-Vixen-style offset canopy over the pilot's seat to reduce drag (no Nav), and range-increasing pure drop tanks that could actually be dropped.