CVA-01

[bacofoil]

What if the Royal Navy had got its CVA-01 carriers ? What would their air group  consist of today ?

[Zen]

That all depends on how.

Probably Hornets and Hawkeye is the most likely since funds will be short.
If the money's forthcomming then SeaTornado as well.

[gunfighter]

Why not a tomcat? the hasegawa kit has LOTS of pieces, but I promise to star tomorrow 
Oh, thanks to Captain Canada for his marvellous decals!

[bacofoil]

Sounds good. How about the SEPECAT Jaguar M ?. If the Aeronavale had aquired it do you the RN may have as well ?.And what about the helios ?With funds short maybe the Whirlwind mk 99 !!

[Thorvic]

Tomcat was really a step too big, CVA-01 could probably handle it weight wise but not really the space to accomodate a worth while number and strike wing.

Zen think you should really point out that Sea Tornado would not be a navalised version of the aircraft we know today, but somthing rather different, as the Naval requirement would have produced an interceptor with a secondary strike role and would probably have been a joint effort with the French based on AFVG or Mirage G8

G

[gunfighter]

Well, this is a project in which I´ve been thinking for a time: an alternate Falklands air group. This will include a tomcat, an intruder and a hornet, in various schemes (pre and during the conflict). The F14 will probably show that sexy blue and white colours of pre-war RN fighters. The hornet is bound to be painted in an experimental improvised camo mixing black, grey and probably white (some kind of sea winter). The A6E might be either blue/white or dark grey (late war). The backstory could have two possibilities: first the UK spend more money on the mid 60s and get three super carriers with the related air wing: phantoms, buccaneers and vigilantes. The phantoms are replaced by tomcats on late 70s, as are the RAF ones (no tornado F2), the vigilantes by Intruders and finally, in 1980 arrive the first F18As to phase out the buccs. In the Falklands conflict, two carriers take part, one of them still with buccaneers, the other with a full complement of F14/18 and A6E. The RN carriers are about 70000 tn displacement, so 20/20/12 of each, plus 6 Sea King helos and 3 E-2Cs. No jammers are carried.
The second option is the Rn go ahead with the real plan and end up with sea harriers  , but once the Argentineans invade the islands, the UK loans a US Navy super carrier (which will be retained later) with all his air wing handed over to the british. This might be the Coral Sea for example. In the post war days, the invincibles are sold to Spain and Italy and a second super carrier is procured (this being a scaled-down Nimitz class), and a third on early 90s.
Of course, the Britannia CVA-02 wreacks havoc among the incoming Daggers and Skyhawks, as well as providing deep strike and ground support capabilities.
This scenario would require hugue amounts of cash, so it´s highly improbable, but I hope the aircrafts will look nice!  

[Zen]

Zen think you should really point out that Sea Tornado would not be a navalised version of the aircraft we know today, but somthing rather different, as the Naval requirement would have produced an interceptor with a secondary strike role and would probably have been a joint effort with the French based on AFVG or Mirage G8

Yes my bad.

It all depends really. We could be talking about something like Type 590 a sort of UK TFX type, though both a little more achievable and affordable.
Or we could be talking something comming out of the AFVG effort since now the RN is still in the game and wanting something very close to what the MN wants out the process.
Or yet further on we come to UKVG.
And as I say maybe even a Tornado-N comming out of the MRCA. Though I can see that being unlikely considering the politics.

Quite plausably the RN gets all 129 F4's it wanted. In which case they just hold off on replacements until the Jaguar replacement effort gets underway..... In which case we could see a sort of UK Rafale type (Squall) possibly derived from the side inlet configuration of the P110.
But the tempation is to just buy Hornets for both services and thus we say bye bye to Eurofighter and hello Euro-Hornet instead. What stands against it is the range and endurance of the F/A18 is not comparable with the Buccaneer.

Or the Shahs order for F14s could be given for very little to the RN in the early 80's once he goes.

[rockhopper]

The original air group for the CVA-01 (& there was only a CVA-01 authorized; CVA-02 was on the wish list) was the RN version of the P.1154 V/STOL, to be known as Harrier. As this would have entered service in 1968-70, and given its role/capability, it would have probably have seen service up to 2000-2005. If HSA could have created a supersonic V/STOL fighter in the '60's (a BIG if), then presumably they & McDonnell-Douglas could have produced a successor with capabilities roughly comparable to the F/A-18 in the '90's, but most likely, they would have gone for the F/A-18, which grew naturally out of the F-16/F-17 competition.

CVA-01 would have carried either two squadrons of P-1154, or one squadron apiece of P-1154 & one Buccaneer. the Phantom was specifically a replacement for the P-1154, and the unusual high numbers were because Admiralty plans were for four strike carriers operating into the early '70's (CVA-01, Ark Royal, Eagle, & Victorious) with the possibility (soon ruled out) that Hermes might also carry Phantoms as a stand-in. Into the mid-'70's, the fleet would have been CVA-01, CVA-02, & a third fleet carrier (probably Eagle, after refit, rather than Ark Royal), with Victorious paid-off in 1971. From the mid-70's, there would have been CVA-01's & 02, plus the through-deck cruisers (which were originally designed as a complement, not replacement, to the CVA's), which theoretically could replace the ASW cruisers & the commando carriers.

Another factor in buying so many Phantoms were that the FAA was almost certainly expecting wastage on a Sea Vixen/Scimitar scale (quite a lot of scrap metal). The balance of the air groups would have been Gannet AEW.3's ((& whatever replaced them, possibly Hawkeyes, but more likely AEW Sea Kings in the 1980's) & ASW Sea Kings, the only aircraft bought for CVA-01 that actually made it into service.

If the carriers had been built, & made it to the 21st century, their air groups would almost certainly have been Phantom/Buccaneer/Gannet/Sea King up to about 1985 & F/A-18/Sea King (including the AEW version) from the late 80's onwards (probably with capacity for amphibious support helicopters). As the largest viable air group would, at most, have been 40 aircraft, the latter would have made a better mix than the former.

Frankly, although Jaguar M was developed as an Etendard replacement, it's narrow undercarriage would have made it lethal on a flight deck, and although Marineflieger Tornadoes had arrester hooks, like the Typhoon, it would just have been too fragile for carrier ops.

[GTX]

P.1154 V/STOL, to be known as Harrier. As this would have entered service in 1968-70, and given its role/capability, it would have probably have seen service up to 2000-2005

Now there's an idea - a modern day P.1154 or at least one for Desert Storm etc

Regards,

Greg

[Zen]

RN wanted and I quote "a 50,000lb twin engined VG fighter bomber".

It did a lot to undermine the idea of having the P1154 forced on it, and I suspect this even went to the point to refusing to look at any single engined aircraft, including the quite attractive idea of the Spey Crusader offering.

P1154 was canceled in '65, while the decision on CV-01 was defered until '66. However even before the election the P1154 was no longer slated for the RN, they'd been released from that imposition to the supposedly cheap and quick idea of a Spey powered F4.

So the F4 was never a 'replacement for the P1154' it was a rival, which on the face of it considering the times looked far more attractive and guarenteed to give what the RN wanted.

Plans for four strike CVs where dropped by the early 60's when the Cabinet decided to reduce it to three.

129 F4s cover the requirements of three CV-01 type CVs and the cycling of airframes.

Gannet was the intial AEW platform, but the plans where for a new aircraft, with HSA's Brough Offices design favoured for both AEW, COD and lots of potential for ASW if needed. The fallback looks like another HSA product derived from a small private jet type.
Helicopter AEW does'nt look likely in a scenario that has the RN aquiring and operating several CVA-01 type CVs and their airwings.

CVA-01 could in theory handle half a Tactical Air Unit, of 48 aircraft,  as per planning circa 1962/63, comprising some 16 fighters and 32 strike/attack/recce/support aircraft, plus 4 AEW, and 2 SAR helicopters. Running them for four days of intensive operations.
However the higher number of F4s usualy quoted suggests some of the strike/attack/recce/support roles where to be provided by this type instead of the Buccaneer. But her standard figures of 18 of each type seems more supportive of a 'Sea Control' role, able to provide continious cover of both F4s and anti-shipping Buccaneers.

[Archibald]

My own little suggestion: try browsing the forum using the search function (CVA-01) You'll see than the CVA-01 topic has been discussed over and over, and lots of interesting ideas have been explored.

As a a frenchmen I like the idea of an anglo-french Mirage G (or fixed-wing Mirage F2) powered by a Spey.
No F-4K, no Mirage F1, no Super Etendard and ultimately... no Jaguar ! 

The US navy might be interested by such machine, as a "Tomkitten". Flying in 1968, The Mirage G would fill the gap between the disastrous F-111B and the Tomcat. Result would be a "pocket Tomcat" with two AIM-54 operating for upgraded Essex carriers (Reagan is elected president in 1976 and starts the "600 ship navy" earlier, saving the Essexes)

USN pilots tested the Mirage G in 1968 (having VG + TF30 = F-111B or... Tomcat !)

The USN Mirage G could be powered by the TF-41 (licence-build Spey) with an afterburner. The engine of the
A-7E... the Tomcat would also benefit greatly from an afterburning TF-41 instead of the crappy TF-30.
Of course this mean no F-18 Hornet after 1980 (another victim !)

[Thorvic]

Whats this Mirage G bull  , the Aircraft was the AFVG, which was designed to meet the requirements of both countries carrier forces, with a secondary strike role for their airforces.

Mirage G only came about once the UK carrier requirement was dropped and CVA-01 cancelled, so Dassault utilised the VG technology tested and developed by Vickers and then intergrated into the unilateral Mirage G aircraft that magically appeared soon after the French withdrawl from the AFVG program.


G

[Nick]

IF CVA-01 had been ordered and delivered on-time then I reckon on a 1974 in-service date. By now she's 35 years old and in need of a serious overhaul.

CVA-02 might have turned up by 1978 and would also need a good going over. Or they might have tried to save cash by getting a pair of smaller carriers like HMS Invincible. That would allow a rota of carriers out at sea or in port, 3 being the recommended minimum.

[Zen]

She would probably be updated years ago, likely the first ship to have the Sampson radars, and the final upgrades to the SeaDart system. Though whether the new radar provides TIR functions for the missile is dependant on a lot of factors.
Indeed not the first such upgrade she'll have had either.

Several tons of kevlar armouring might have found their way into her, and she may well have been taken in hand during the late 80's for major rewiring and computer change.

Phalanx might have been her first post SeaCat option, and now Goalkeeper. I have my doubts over her getting SeaWolf as well.

She might have had troubles from the first batch of the new boiler and machinary so this might be replaced, assuming her sisters get improved units.

[uk 75]

In the Janes All the Worlds Fighting Ships for 1963/4 and repeated on an excellent webpage devoted to CVA01 (link in Wikipedia of all places) there is a drawing of the original version of CVA 01 with angled deck and 2 Seadarts aft. On the deck are some weird swing wing aircraft which were originally intended to replace the Sea Vixens and Buccaneers on the ship in the 1970s (the webpage referred to above explains).

Essentially the various designs for this plane looked like a swing-wing version of the Vigilante or a bigger Harrier with swing wings.


Turning to HMS Queen Elizabeth.  Had she been ordered on time in the mid-60s (perhaps as part of an attempt to win marginal seats in the 1966 election) she would have not been in service until the early 70s, especially given the problems in the UK during this period.  The much simpler through deck cruiser HMS Invincible took from 1974 to 1981 to bring into service, so 1972-3 is the earliest and 1974-6 the more likely.   As for planes.  In order to pay for QE the RN would have had to give up Ark Royal and Eagle in the late 60s and rely on Hermes as the other carrier.  This would have meant running on Sea Vixens and Buccaneers until about 1972 (as happened on HMS Eagle).

By the time QE arrived at Portsmouth in the mid-70s her airgroup would have been that of HMS Hermes  (Sea Vix, Bucs, Helos and Gannets).  Depending on budgets and programmes the RN might have been able to persuade the RAF (who would already have lost TSR 2 to pay for QE) to agree to a joint F14 purchase. More likely, however, the politicians would have insisted on Tornado as the ultimate Sea Vix/Buc replacement.  There was simply no money around in the 70s for anything better.

By the mid 80s the F18 would have been arriving in US service, and probably could have been purchased for QE (and Duke of Edinburgh, if Mrs T had agreed to her in 1979 or so).

UK 75