Spanish Civil War GB?

[Weaver]

If the civil war continued past 1939 but WWII still started on-time, then the participants might have supplied their "also ran" aircraft to the Spanish combatants. The Nationalists really did get He-112s, so how about a Nationalist He-100 (with normal cooling system, of course)?

From Britain, how about the Miles Master as a fighter or fighter bomber? The prototype of the Master was only a few knots slower than the Hurricane, although production trainers were de-rated, making them considerably slower. 24 Master Fighters, with 6 x .303s and rear seats removed, really were produced as emergency fighters in 1940. However, Merlins would be in short supply, so how about a version with an American radial-engine? Frog did a kit of the radial-engined Master, so it wouldn't be that hard to do. You could even get creative with the Polikarpov of your choice, and say that the Masters were supplied with Mercuries but then re-engined with M-63s.....

From America, how about 2nd hand Martin B-10 bombers as the USAAF re-equipped? Curtiss TakeyourpickHawks would be a natural fighter export, of course.

It's interesting to speculate on how the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression pact might have impacted supplies to Spain: it would be a bit embarrassing to be best of buddies in Poland yet still have your proxies slugging it out in Spain. Perhaps the Nationalists would have had to turn more to Italy: Re-2000s anyone?

[JayBee]

Well I am looking at this scenario as one where the Spanish Civil War went on a bit longer than it did in the RW, and became part of WW2.
Late 1941 Britain declared support for the Republican forces, then after Pearl Harbour the USA joined in.
I am leaving it at that for the moment, the impact on German operations in the East I am not going to think about at the moment.
JimB

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

I'm thinking P-36's, early P-39's & P-40's for the Republicans, together with MiG 3's, LaGG 1's, the aforementioned Hurricane's......

Heinkel 100's for the Nationalists and don't forget Mav's Japanese 'Volunteers' and all their machines - got ALL of those profiles saved  . How's about some Italian hardware ? Macchi 202's perhaps.....

Matilda tanx, maybe some early M3 Lee's ?

Could even go the other way - the fighting breaks-out again after 1945...... Tempests, Spit 22's and P-47N's Vs Me262's, He162's and Ta183's..... Ahh nutz, I'm getting carried away again aren't I 

Ian

[Weaver]

Suppose that, with more international support for the Republicans, the war became bogged down in a stalemate that became a de-facto fragile ceasefire? Spain might be permanently partitioned into Republican and Nationalist states, with occasional inconclusive wars and border incidents, a bit like India and Pakistan. The shifting politics would be fascinating: during WWII, the Nationalists would be doing well, with the Republicans sandwiched between them and occupied France. After WWII, the Nationalists would have a thin time of it due to their former Fascist supporters evaporating, but then, with the start of the Cold War, realpolitik would see the Western nations supporting the Nats and the Soviet Union arming the Republicans......

Both sides would have an incentive to develop their own defence industries to make themselves independent of these fluctuating forces. The Nationalists would probably attract ex-Nazi designers (as happened in real life), while the Republicans might pick up disillusioned left-wing designers and engineers from France and Italy.

1948: Republican Meteors vs Nationalist  He-280s

1955: Nationalist Sabres vs Republican MiG-15s

1963: Nationalist HA-300s vs Repulican er something originals.....

[Maverick]

In addition to the Japanese 'volunteers', I also have done profiles of the following for an extended SCW:

LEGION KONDOR
Ar-81
He-116
He-119
Hs-129
Hs-132
Ju-88A-14
Me-163
S-199

REPUBLICAN
Antonov I-12
Fokker D.23
LaGG-3
MiG-3
Pe-2
VB-10

ITALIAN
CANT Z.1014
Macchi C.202

Regards,

Mav

[nev]

Hmm, I've got an F-84 that I haven't known what to do with for the longest time.....I'm guessing the Nationalists would use them (supplied by President McCarthy )

[GTX]

Suppose that, with more international support for the Republicans, the war became bogged down in a stalemate that became a de-facto fragile ceasefire? Spain might be permanently partitioned into Republican and Nationalist states, with occasional inconclusive wars and border incidents, a bit like India and Pakistan. The shifting politics would be fascinating: during WWII, the Nationalists would be doing well, with the Republicans sandwiched between them and occupied France. After WWII, the Nationalists would have a thin time of it due to their former Fascist supporters evaporating, but then, with the start of the Cold War, realpolitik would see the Western nations supporting the Nats and the Soviet Union arming the Republicans......

I love this idea!   Lots of possibilities.

Regards,

Greg

[JayBee]

Having just got the jet parts for the Shinden from Martin, I feel a Nationalist Jet Shinden approaching.

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

Having just got the jet parts for the Shinden from Martin, I feel a Nationalist Jet Shinden approaching.

H*ll yes ! - It would be rude not to.......

Ian

[Weaver]

EXCELLENT website about Spanish Civil War aircraft and colours:

http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/index.html

The good thing with this site is that not only does it have a list of aircraft that fought in the war, but also a list of aircraft that might have done (i.e. the evidence is unclear) and a list of aircraft that definitely didn't, but have since been rumoured or reported to have done.The Whiff potential of these lists is obvious......


Weaver
Currently contemplating a Vultee Vengeance in the Hannant's sale........

[Weaver]

I'm thinking along the lines of keeping my entries to this very credible (i.e. just stretch the war out a couple more years), they being real late '30s/early '40s export types with only minor mods and Spanish colour schemes. This alao puts the emphasis on painting rather than building, which is where I'm weaker, so hopefully I'll learn something.

Current fleet of possibilities:

Republican:

Polikarpov I-153 (too late for the RW war contrary to popular perception): got two.
Polikarpov I-16 tip-24 (again, this model was too late, plus I might whiff them): got two.
Curtis Hawk 75: got one.
Caudron 714: got one.
Fokker D.XXIII: got one.
Westland Lysander (with whiif engine option?): got one.
Vultee Vengeance: one on order.
Brewster Buffalo: considering.
Gloster Gladiator (with whiff engine option?): considering.
Westland Lysander (with whiif engine option?): got one.


Nationalist:

Polikarpov I-153 with BMW V1 engine from Revell He-70: got two.
Polikarpov I-16 with BMW V1 engine from Revell He-70: got two.
Heinkel He-100: got one.
Heinkel He-70 with whiff engine (db-601?) and proper turret: got one.
Reggiani Re-2000 : one on order.

[frank2056]

Suppose that, with more international support for the Republicans, the war became bogged down in a stalemate that became a de-facto fragile ceasefire? Spain might be permanently partitioned into Republican and Nationalist states, with occasional inconclusive wars and border incidents, a bit like India and Pakistan.

Also, some of the regions (Galicia, Catalonia and the Basque region) were pushing for or had achieved autonomy just before the Spanish Civil War. In your scenario, it's possible that Spain would have been broken up into four states - the Nationalists in the South and the three loosely confederated Republican states in the North.
Portugal supported the Nationalists during the war, but Galicia shares a language and border with Portugal, so it would have added yet another area of conflict.

[Brian da Basher]

Suppose that, with more international support for the Republicans, the war became bogged down in a stalemate that became a de-facto fragile ceasefire? Spain might be permanently partitioned into Republican and Nationalist states, with occasional inconclusive wars and border incidents, a bit like India and Pakistan.

Also, some of the regions (Galicia, Catalonia and the Basque region) were pushing for or had achieved autonomy just before the Spanish Civil War. In your scenario, it's possible that Spain would have been broken up into four states - the Nationalists in the South and the three loosely confederated Republican states in the North.
Portugal supported the Nationalists during the war, but Galicia shares a language and border with Portugal, so it would have added yet another area of conflict.

There could also be a Nationalist leaning Carlist state in Navarre...

Brian da Basher

[Weaver]

Current fleet of possibilities:

Republican:

Polikarpov I-153 (too late for the RW war contrary to popular perception): got three.
Polikarpov I-16 tip-24 (again, this model was too late, plus I might whiff them): got two.
Curtis Hawk 75 (Flying Tigers-style American Volunteer Group): got two.
Caudron 714: got one.
Fokker D.XXIII: got one.
Fokker D.XXI: got one.
Westland Lysander (with whiif engine option?): got one.
Vultee Vengeance: got one.
Brewster Buffalo: got one.
P.Z.L. P-23A/B Karas (ordered some but never delivered) (Possibly as a Gnome Rhone-engined P-43 export version, since P.Z.L.'s Mercury licence precluded exports.): Got one.
Morane Saulnier Ms.406: Got one.
Bristol Blenheim Mk.1: got one.
Martin B-10 (possibly with engine change): got one.
PZL P.11 or P.24: considering, but kits are very hard to find in 1/72nd.
Vultee V-11: considering.
Vultee V-24 Vanguard: considering, but kits are pricey.
Gloster Gladiator (with whiff engine option?): considering.


Nationalist:

Polikarpov I-153 with BMW V1 engine from Revell He-70: got three.
Polikarpov I-16 with BMW V1 engine from Revell He-70: got two.
Heinkel He-100: got one. Want more!
Heinkel He-70 with whiff engine (db-601?) and proper turret: got two.
Reggiani Re-2000: got one.
Dewoitine D.520 (Supplied to Nationalists by Vichy Govt. post-1940*): got one.
Caproni Ca-311: got one.
IMAM Ro.57: considering, but kits are pricey.



*French fighters like the D.520 provide an interesting can of worms. Pre-1940 they'd be supplied to the Republicans, but after the fall of France, the Vichy govt. might well be pressured into supplying them to the Nationalists by a German government that needed all it's own production for it's own needs.

[Ian the Kiwi Herder]

Gone quiet on this potential GB, personally I'm still very keen on it and just wondering if everybody else stil feels the same ?

Ian