Spanish Civil War GB?

[lancer]

I just don't have the time to take part in these GB's right now. Still trying to get my Telford builds done

[Weaver]

Well I just sold a dismantled bike which freed up a lot more space in the attic, so I decided to put all my SCW kits together. Probably a mistake really, 'cos that's a scary pile of kits to get through (and about two year's work at current rates):



Still, I think you could say I'm up for the SCW GB......

[jcf]

Given the political leanings of much of the pre-war Polish government and the staunch conservative Catholicism of its members I could see that Karas in Falange markings.

[Weaver]

Given the political leanings of much of the pre-war Polish government and the staunch conservative Catholicism of its members I could see that Karas in Falange markings.

Actually, the Poles were all for selling stuff to the Republicans as far as I know. Delivery of PZL P.11s was only blocked by the non-intervention treaty, and they were offered the P.37 Los before it was even announced to exist outside of Poland. There have also been photos, probably fake, of a Karas in Republican service, so making that true is not much of a push as a Whiff.

All info from here: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/didnt.html

[jcf]

Given the political leanings of much of the pre-war Polish government and the staunch conservative Catholicism of its members I could see that Karas in Falange markings.

Actually, the Poles were all for selling stuff to the Republicans as far as I know. Delivery of PZL P.11s was only blocked by the non-intervention treaty, and they were offered the P.37 Los before it was even announced to exist outside of Poland. There have also been photos, probably fake, of a Karas in Republican service, so making that true is not much of a push as a Whiff.

All info from here: http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/didnt.html

Actually the Polish government was anti-Communist and hated the Spanish Republicans.  

The only Polish aircraft factually proven to have gone to Spain (via Portugal) during the Civil War all
went to the Nationalists, these were twenty P.W.S.10 and four R.W.D. 13.
The P.W.S. purchase was arranged by the Spanish air attache in Paris and London shortly after the announcement
of the embargo, and there is no doubt this was done with the connivance of the Polish government (in violation of
their stated policy of embargoing both sides) because most of aircraft came directly from military establishments.

There are also unconfirmed reports that sixteen P.W.S. 16 sold to Portugal
(another anti-Republican government) were sold on to the Nationalists.
Stories that some of the P.W.S. 16 were sold to the Republicans are discounted
by historians due to the enmity between Portugal and the Republicans.

Info from Aircraft of the Spanish Civil War 1936 - 1939  Gerald Howson, Putnam 1990

Howson makes no mention of Spanish P.11s, however Jerzy Cynk in Polish Aircraft 1893-1939, Putnam 1971,
states: "In 1936 the Spanish Republican government made a determined effort to buy a number of P.11 fighters,
and negotiations concerning the sale of the first fifteen machines were almost completed when an official Polish
declaration of strict neutrality, made on 29 July, 1936, prevented the deal." Cynk, page 167

So it seems that the Polish government's 'strict neutrality and embargo' truthfully only applied to the Republicans.

Jon

[Weaver]

Jon, I havn't got either book, but note this from the website I linked to:

The PZL P-37 Los was offered for sale to the Republicans before the type was even known to exist outside Poland. In the end the deal, like so many others, fell through. A brief but fascinating account of this is given in Gerald Howson in Arms for Spain.

Presumably, that's the same Gerald Howson?

So it seems that the Polish government's 'strict neutrality and embargo' truthfully only applied to the Republicans.

I don't really see that in the pasaages you've quoted. The P.W.S. 16s were sold to Portugal not Spain, and then subsequently sold on, so that doesn't violate a Polish embargo on Spain on the face of it (of course, it might or might not have always been the intention, but we'd need more info to determine that).

As for the P.11s, if the Polish government was so opposed to the Republican Spanish one, then why were the negotiations allowed to even start, let alone be "almost completed"? The deal strikes me as more a victim of a specific change of foreign policy, possibly to be "in step" with other world powers, rather than doomed from the start due to underlying hostility.

[jcf]

Jon, I havn't got either book, but note this from the website I linked to:
The PZL P-37 Los was offered for sale to the Republicans before the type was even known to exist outside Poland. In the end the deal, like so many others, fell through. A brief but fascinating account of this is given in Gerald Howson in Arms for Spain.

Presumably, that's the same Gerald Howson?

Yes and he mentions the Los in the book I mentioned. However he sees it as an anomaly.

So it seems that the Polish government's 'strict neutrality and embargo' truthfully only applied to the Republicans.

I don't really see that in the pasaages you've quoted. The P.W.S. 16s were sold to Portugal not Spain, and then subsequently sold on, so that doesn't violate a Polish embargo on Spain on the face of it (of course, it might or might not have always been the intention, but we'd need more info to determine that).

As for the P.11s, if the Polish government was so opposed to the Republican Spanish one, then why were the negotiations allowed to even start, let alone be "almost completed"? The deal strikes me as more a victim of a specific change of foreign policy, possibly to be "in step" with other world powers, rather than doomed from the start due to underlying hostility.

The P.W.S.16s were sold to Portugal, the P.W.S. 10s were sold to the Nationalists and were transferred directly via Portugal from Polish military units, two separate things.

Polish neutrality and the embargo were announced just after the commencement of hostilities in Spain, the P.11 negotiations were ongoing before hostilities. Something to bear in mind is that the leftist (and anti-clerical) Popular Front government had only come into power in March 1936, by a very close vote of 34% to 33% for the conservative National Front. Prior to the PF was a conservative government under Lerroux. The Lerroux government had come into power in 1933 following countrywide disorder as people protested the 1931-1932 government's slow rate of 'reforms' ... reforms that were opposed by the Church, aristocracy, most officersof the armed services, financial and industrial leaders and the fascist party. The same mix that backed the military coup of 17-18 July. The Director General de Aeronautica under Lerroux was Gen Goded (who became one of the principal plotters of the Nationalist rebellion) and he had been involved in a rearmament program since 1934 under the direction of the conservative and staunch Catholic War Minister Jose-Maria Gil Robles.

So, putting on my cynical political hat, it may be that when negotiations were begun to sell the P.11s it was with a conservative Republican government and
that the outbreak of war provided a convenient excuse to cancel a no longer desired deal with the now leftist Republican government.

Returning to the Los, I'm curious about the timing. Howson says the order was placed in 1938 and the Los had its 'foreign' debut at the Belgrade Air Show
in May 1938. One thing from reading Cynk it is clear that the Los had some technical but more political issues, with powerful Polish Army officers opposed to bombers. So perhaps PZL were at the point of selling to anyone to maintain production, and in the case of the Red Republicans they knew that the money would probably come from somewhere else.

Jon

[Weaver]

In the Whiff time line I'm envisioning, Britain, France and the USA take the view that supporting the Republicans (not directly, but by allowing them to buy arms and recruit foreign volunteers) is a good idea because:

a) it gets Hitler and Mussolini bogged down in a quagmire in Spain, without the Western powers getting similarly bogged down,

b) the arms buy influence for Western diplomacy on the Republican side, thus allowing them to support moderate elements and resist extreme Communism.

Now in that situation, do you think that Poland (with every reason to be as scared of Hitler as of Communism) might be persuaded to join the democracies in supporting the Republicans?

(Note that this fine plan doesn't actually work out in the long run, but it seems like a good idea at the time....)

[Weaver]

Current fleet of possibilities:

Republican:

Polikarpov I-153 (too late for the RW war contrary to popular perception): got three.
Polikarpov I-16 tip-24 (again, this model was too late, plus I might whiff them): got two.
Curtis Hawk 75 (Flying Tigers-style American Volunteer Group): got two.
Caudron 714: got one.
Fokker D.XXIII: got one.
Fokker D.XXI: got one.
Westland Lysander (with whiif engine option?): got one.
Vultee Vengeance: got two.
Brewster Buffalo: got one.
P.Z.L. P-23A/B Karas (ordered some but never delivered) (Possibly as a Gnome Rhone-engined P-43 export version, since P.Z.L.'s Mercury licence precluded exports.): Got one.
Morane Saulnier Ms.406: Got one.
Bristol Blenheim Mk.1: got one.
Martin B-10 (possibly with engine change): got one and a vac-form canopy.
PZL P.11 or P.24: considering, but kits are very hard to find in 1/72nd.
Vultee V-11: got one.
Vultee V-24 Vanguard: considering, but kits are pricey.
Gloster Gladiator (with whiff engine option?): considering.
PZL P.37 Lós: got one.


Nationalist:

Polikarpov I-153 with BMW V1 engine from Revell He-70: got three.
Polikarpov I-16 with BMW V1 engine from Revell He-70: got two.
Heinkel He-100: got one - want more!
Heinkel He-70 with whiff engine (db-601?) and proper turret: got four.
Reggiani Re-2000: got one.
Dewoitine D.520 (Supplied to Nationalists by Vichy Govt. post-1940*): got one.
Caproni Ca-311: got one.
IMAM Ro.57: considering, but kits are pricey.



*French fighters like the D.520 provide an interesting can of worms. Pre-1940 they'd be supplied to the Republicans, but after the fall of France, the Vichy govt. might well be pressured into supplying them to the Nationalists by a German government that needed all it's own production for it's own needs.

[jcf]

In the Whiff time line I'm envisioning, Britain, France and the USA take the view that supporting the Republicans (not directly, but by allowing them to buy arms and recruit foreign volunteers) is a good idea because:

a) it gets Hitler and Mussolini bogged down in a quagmire in Spain, without the Western powers getting similarly bogged down,

b) the arms buy influence for Western diplomacy on the Republican side, thus allowing them to support moderate elements and resist extreme Communism.

Now in that situation, do you think that Poland (with every reason to be as scared of Hitler as of Communism) might be persuaded to join the democracies in supporting the Republicans?

(Note that this fine plan doesn't actually work out in the long run, but it seems like a good idea at the time....)

If the 'Western' nations were that blatantly open in support of the Red Republicans its possible that the ultra-conservative, military dominated Polish government would make common cause with other rightist governments (Germany, Italy, Portugal etc) against the Spanish Reds. Especially given the blatantly anti-clerical position of most of the Spanish hard left, some sources estimate as many as 7,000 clergy, and 3,000 lay religious were killed during the anti-Catholic violence of the Civil War.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror_%28Spain%29

Germany and Poland were at loggerheads over territorial claims, not political philosophy, so making temporary common cause is not outside of the realm of possibility.

So if the Western powers had openly supported the Reds, it may have led to an unexpected strengthening of relations between otherwise mutually hostile parties. Perhaps an even more militaristic and conservative, anti-communist Poland allied with Nazi Germany agianst the Soviet Union and Reds in general?

Jon

[Weaver]

All food for thought - cheers!

Here's an article based on Gerald Howson's Arms for Spain (which I intend to buy):

http://struggle.ws/spain/review_arms_gold.html

Most of it's about how the Soviet Union royally ripped the Republicans off, but note this passage towards the end:

Even Poland, governed by a right-wing junta which admired Franco, sold the Republicans huge quantities of arms, often overpriced and obsolete. Polish officers afterwards claimed they had made the equivalent of £296m out of these deals. "Why should you worry?" one of them observed. "It's only to the Spanish Republicans!"

That appears to solve the dilemma: business over politics! Like I say, I'll be ordering the book shortly.

[Sauragnmon]

I would find it amusing, or interesting, to see the Japanese pushing towards the Republicans as well, considering in the lead up before Japan started really breaking out against China, the Nationalists were being supported by Germany, with instructors and arms shipments.  That might have made for a rather interesting position, if the Japanese had slid in beside the Soviets, it could have made a very different shift to the way history unfolded.  But that's going a little too far into depth on some directions.  Still, spooky thoughts in some ways.  Republican Zeroes or Hayabusas or other such aircraft.  The Pacific war could have been quite different - Japanese Navy being fed on Russian Oil, pushing through the embargo, Pearl Harbour doesn't kick off as a result?

[jcf]

All food for thought - cheers!

Here's an article based on Gerald Howson's Arms for Spain (which I intend to buy):

http://struggle.ws/spain/review_arms_gold.html

Most of it's about how the Soviet Union royally ripped the Republicans off, but note this passage towards the end:

Even Poland, governed by a right-wing junta which admired Franco, sold the Republicans huge quantities of arms, often overpriced and obsolete. Polish officers afterwards claimed they had made the equivalent of £296m out of these deals. "Why should you worry?" one of them observed. "It's only to the Spanish Republicans!"

That appears to solve the dilemma: business over politics! Like I say, I'll be ordering the book shortly.

So up the cynicism and have them openly selling to both sides, old stuff to the Reds and new stuff to the Nationalists.

P.7s in Republicans markings versus P.11s and P.24s with Nationalist black balls and Falange arrows.

Money from both sides and assistance for their buddy Franco.

Aint' the world just a grand place?

[Sauragnmon]

Well, that and let's look at the situation - they're bleeding the Republicans dry, and selling them old stuff at an arm and a leg - getting rid of your old weapons, making money, and bankrupting people you really don't like, all in the same stroke - it's bloody genius!

[jcf]

Well, that and let's look at the situation - they're bleeding the Republicans dry, and selling them old stuff at an arm and a leg - getting rid of your old weapons, making money, and bankrupting people you really don't like, all in the same stroke - it's bloody genius!

Yep, make money off the old kit and keep the production lines humming thereby lowering unit cost, so in effect
the Reds are subsidizing the Polish Air Force.

Luckily or not the real Polish generals weren't that visionary, they were blinkered horse-soldiers who actively
worked against their own Air Force.