Allies' "Allergy" to Red Markings

[sequoiaranger]

I think "we" are all acquainted with the decision to remove the "traditional" red dot from US aircraft markings in the Pacific theatre, lest there be confusion and mis-identification with Japanese aircraft. This change came around late May of 1942. The planes used at the Coral Sea battles in early May all had the red dot, but by early June (Midway) the red dot had been completely expunged.

Though I would admit it all sounds LOGICAL, I am interested in the lead-up to the decision. That is, were there any actual INCIDENTS of mis-identification and friendly-fire that precipitated the decision? Did Japanese fighters NOT shoot at American planes because they saw the red "meatball"? I don't recall any such controversy in all my readings. The British Commonwealth took out their red dot in the middle of their roundels, too, so it must have been a high-level decision. Yet, all American aircraft in Europe also had the red from our roundel removed, whereas NO Commonwealth aircraft did. So **WHO** made the decision and why?

[B777LR]

Wasn't the Blue with red-dot Royal Navy marking the markings the RAAF and RNZAF used at home? And the commonwealth roundel used in Europe was the RAF one. Makes a bit of sense, actually. Less roundels, less confusion, more singular air force.

[sequoiaranger]

>Wasn't the Blue with red-dot Royal Navy marking the markings the RAAF and RNZAF used at home? And the commonwealth roundel used in Europe was the RAF one. Makes a bit of sense, actually. Less roundels, less confusion, more singular air force.<

Yes, that is WHY I am surprised that the red dot was taken out of European American aircraft, since red center, surrounded by white (either ring or star), surrounded by blue would be a "uniform" Anglo-Allied recognition marking.

Not all Commonwealth aircraft used a red center. The South African Air Force used an orange center for their European aircraft roundel instead of red, but orange is dam* close to red, and gave them some distinction.

Italy and Germany both used black-and-white exclusively for their national markings, so it's almost like, "if it's got color, it's Allied", and a red dot or two wouldn't matter. So why ditch the American red center?

[B777LR]

When did the USAAF transform into the USAF?

[PR19_Kit]

When did the USAAF transform into the USAF?

Sometime in 1947 AFAIK, but before 1942 it was the USAAC.

[Maverick]

Sequoia,

RAAF aircraft serving in the Pacific also had the red centre of the roundel removed.  Everything I've read suggests the reason for this was because of a concern in fading where the red might 'stand out' against the camouflage & be mistaken.  RN aircraft serving in the theater also had the red removed.

Regards,

Mav

[sequoiaranger]

>RAAF aircraft serving in the Pacific also had the red centre of the roundel removed.  Everything I've read suggests the reason for this was because of a concern in fading where the red might 'stand out' against the camouflage & be mistaken.  RN aircraft serving in the theater also had the red removed.<

If you saw my original post I said the same thing. Yes, I have heard "suggestions" that the red dot might be "mistaken" for Japanese, but....my question is still unanswered as to WHY (were there any incidents?) and WHO so ordered it. The British Commonwealth had the red/white/blue cockade for decades, and militaries are a traditional lot. To change a national marking should be a high-level decision of importance.

This all still does not explain why US aircraft deleted the red center for planes other than Pacific. The British seemed to have no problem delineating different markings for different theatres, so strict uniformity is unnecessary. Still a mystery.

[Maverick]

Sequoia,

Whilst you mentioned 'British Commonwealth', the RNZAF retained their red dot in the Pacific, albeit as a very small marking. 

I believe the deletion of the red centre dot on USAAF aircraft was for a similar reason, but for whatever reason they chose to continue the marking with their European war aircraft.

Then of course, there was Free French aircraft that flew with a large red Lorraine Cross on their aircraft these aircraft not serving against the Japanese.

Regards,

Mav

[sequoiaranger]

>Whilst you mentioned 'British Commonwealth', the RNZAF retained their red dot in the Pacific, albeit as a very small marking.  <

I'm pretty sure I recall that the NZ roundel went light blue, white, light blue from outside to center (with white wing bars surrounded in blue, as US custom), with NO RED.

>Then of course, there was Free French aircraft that flew with a large red Lorraine Cross on their aircraft these aircraft not serving against the Japanese.<

Then of course, there WERE no "Free French" in the Pacific Theatre.  Japan's Indonesian empire fell only when Japan itself did, so there was no "liberation" and/or split loyalties under arms.

I appreciate the comments, but we are no closer to the answer.

[Maverick]

I beg to differ.  I've tried to attach a pic of an RNZAF P-40 with the markings as I mentioned, but I keep getting the message that the 'upload folder' is full?  Either way, the pic clearly shows a red-centred roundel on the fuselage side whilst flying out of Guadalcanal.  I also believe I mentioned the fact that the Free French were not fighting against the Japanese previously "not serving against the Japanese"

As to the use of the colour red, everything I've read tends to mention fading and that the red stood out when faded as opposed to the blue which blended into the camouflage scheme.

Regards,

Mav

[NARSES2]

Doesn't really answer the why part of the question but answers the RNAZF roundel part. I've never seen documentary evidence of the allied markings being mistaken for Japanese prior to the change, but that documentation may well have been lost in the early defeats ? Given the way throughout the short history of aerial combat identification errors have constantly and are still occurring, then I think it was probably a "lets try and eliminate all possible errors before they happen" type of decision.

http://rnzaf.hobbyvista.com/p40col.html

[sequoiaranger]

Thank You, Narses2; with your link you've added to the confusion!! 

The national marking scheme of strictly light blue to which I was referring was the one on the bottom of your linked page. I am AMAZED that the US would send P-40E's into the same theater as US Aircraft, but retaining the red center on the Commonwealth aircraft. That just doesn't make sense (part of my general query) to start changing the roundel in 1943 to eliminate the red, when US and even British and Aussie aircraft had the red removed a year earlier.

Mav--Yes, I was getting the "upload folder is full" on other threads yesterday. Never saw that before.

Re the French: I wasn't sure, the way your sentence read, that you realized there were no Free French in the Far East, so I put what I put in to clarify.

I stand corrected as to the red in RNZAF markings (see comment in above paragraph), but that puts yet another mystery in to the mix---WHY would the Kiwis be so obtuse (or risky) to keep their rounded red when everybody else was "complying" with the "directive" to remove the red? I could see the one-inch-red-dot idea as keeping red in the roundel as tradition and still eliminating mistaken identity. So why didn't the Brits, Aussies, and Yanks do the same? More mystery.

As we know, us Yanks tried out a red outline to the star-and-bar in summer of 1943 in all theatres of war, but quickly eliminated that, too. Too bad, as I think that is THE BEST-looking US marking of the war.

[kitnut617]

I have read many a combat account where in the heat of battle, other aircraft were mis-identified and shot at, almost by instinct.  In one book a Spitfire pilot shot at a Typhoon that his squadron were escorting on a raid and in the melee of the battle with German aircraft it was mistaken as an enemy aircraft.  Great pains were taken to paint highly visible identification marks on Typhoons.  I've read that the same happened with US forces pilots where a quick glimpse of an aircraft flashing in front of them showed some red and instinctively, shot at it.  I think the red was removed to prevent these things happening for the most part.  Same with the RN markings of the white bars to the roundel, a quick glimpse would show a similarity to a US marking.

[Geoff]

I believe Vichy French aircraft operated for a time over Indo-China.
Thai  Oscars used a red/white elefant marking on the fuselage and upper wings and Hinomaru under the wings. IIRC Thailand also had a red - white - blue - white - red roundel for part of the war that could easily be mistaken for RAF roundels.

[NARSES2]

Thank You, Narses2; with your link you've added to the confusion!! 

Thats what I'm here for 

Seriously though I'm as confused as you