Communist Italy

Arc3371 · June 01, 2009, 06:51:12 PM

How about using the Republikanischer Schutzbund insignia for a communist Austria?

sideshowbob9 · June 02, 2009, 05:47:34 AM

^ Ooooo, I like it!

Geoff · June 02, 2009, 12:37:54 PM

I think I was going to use ared circle with red star anf central green dot for Northern Italy. (Think Yugoslavian type roundel)

sideshowbob9 · June 03, 2009, 07:37:33 AM

^ In that case you would have to hope there aren't any colourblind Italian or Yugoslavian pilots

. Would make for an interesting comparison between the two.

I think the Yugoslavian roundel would remain unchanged in this scenario as it is already suitably red star-ish!

Access to northern Italian ports would make the Med. naval situation interesting, certainly for Turkey with the Bosphorus. I wonder how a Soviet naval presence might affect the Suez Crisis?

Arc3371 · June 03, 2009, 11:31:20 AM

Interesting questions is how would a communist Italy affect the Trieste question and with which side would it side in the in the Soviet-Yugoslav break

Geoff · June 03, 2009, 01:03:05 PM

Well I sort of moved Korea to the Med, so I had Italy as hardline communist behind the USSR.

nev · June 04, 2009, 01:30:16 AM

Quote from: Geoff on June 03, 2009, 01:03:05 PM
Well I sort of moved Korea to the Med,

I never knew you had such deity-level powers Geoff

NARSES2 · June 04, 2009, 03:23:31 AM

Quote from: Geoff on June 03, 2009, 01:03:05 PM
Well I sort of moved Korea to the Med, so I had Italy as hardline communist behind the USSR.

Ah so that's why Our Glorious Leader is off to Italy later in the month

sideshowbob9 · June 04, 2009, 07:27:45 AM

Quote from: nev on June 04, 2009, 01:30:16 AM
Quote from: Geoff on June 03, 2009, 01:03:05 PM
Well I sort of moved Korea to the Med,

I never knew you had such deity-level powers Geoff

You couldn't move my house could you?

I don't think anything in this scenario would preclude Korea from happening but I suppose the question is how much resources can NATO divide between the two? Would a choice have to be made. Which one would you intervene in?

Also, with the increased Soviet naval presence in the Med., would the UK withdraw from Egypt as per the OTL. If so and Egypt aligns itself with the Soviets, things become VERY bleak for NATO in the Med.

Regarding Trieste, assuming the Partisans got there before the Soviets, would they necessarily want to deny the Soviets Trieste considering the help they received from them liberating Belgrade?

If they held onto Trieste and southern Austria post-war, could we see a heavily U.S.-backed Yugoslavia in some kind of face-off with the USSR and their Soviet-Italian allies?

Arc3371 · June 04, 2009, 09:27:22 AM

I think Yugoslavia would have pushed for the Monfalcone-Gorizia border as historical, and Italy being hardcore communist doesnt automaticly make it pro-Soviet as evidenced by Tito, Mao and some degree Hoxha

sideshowbob9 · June 04, 2009, 11:15:36 AM

Quote from: Arc3371 on June 04, 2009, 09:27:22 AM
I think Yugoslavia would have pushed for the Monfalcone-Gorizia border as historical, and Italy being hardcore communist doesnt automaticly make it pro-Soviet as evidenced by Tito, Mao and some degree Hoxha

Oh I agree that there are no absolutes but one of the assumptions of this scenario is that Italy IS in alliance with the USSR, at least the northern part anyhoo. Hence their getting the aforementioned Il-10s and other Soviet equipment to play with.

Oh and Tito is a terminal-case optimist if he thinks he's going to make it as far as Gorizia in this timeline

Arc3371 · June 04, 2009, 11:21:23 AM

Well wanting and getting are two different things

Geoff · June 04, 2009, 03:43:13 PM

Quote from: sideshowbob9 on June 04, 2009, 07:27:45 AM
Quote from: nev on June 04, 2009, 01:30:16 AM
Quote from: Geoff on June 03, 2009, 01:03:05 PM
Well I sort of moved Korea to the Med,

I never knew you had such deity-level powers Geoff

You couldn't move my house could you?

I don't think anything in this scenario would preclude Korea from happening but I suppose the question is how much resources can NATO divide between the two? Would a choice have to be made. Which one would you intervene in?

Also, with the increased Soviet naval presence in the Med., would the UK withdraw from Egypt as per the OTL. If so and Egypt aligns itself with the Soviets, things become VERY bleak for NATO in the Med.

Regarding Trieste, assuming the Partisans got there before the Soviets, would they necessarily want to deny the Soviets Trieste considering the help they received from them liberating Belgrade?

If they held onto Trieste and southern Austria post-war, could we see a heavily U.S.-backed Yugoslavia in some kind of face-off with the USSR and their Soviet-Italian allies?

I had Italy going communist due to being "liberated" by the Red Army in '45, so the elections of '47 returned a strong pro-Moscow government.
I left Italy as a sort of civil war with both power blocs on high alert but not wanting to intervene so as to not kick off WW3, which if you have the Korean War as per OTL would be a possibility, Hell it was anyway.

House moving - nope sorry lads.

OGL going to Italia - hmmm.

With a communist Italy it would be quite likely that the UK would try to hold onto the Canal. i wonder if the US would take a different view of the British and French colonial "adventure" at Suez under these circumstances, perhaps branding Nasser as a communist/bad guy?
I did wonder if the UK's relationship with Israel might be a bit warmer as well.

sideshowbob9 · June 05, 2009, 03:56:16 AM

Well initially, I had Italy accepting Soviet occupation as a fait accompli but starting this thread and learning of northern Italy's communist leanings has proved serendipitous.

The basic idea was to have the two big post-war powers via their respective Italian allies within spitting distance of each other, very roughly as in this map:

Thanks to your input, the scenario has evolved to included a communist Austria, a Yugoslavian Trieste and it would seem the butterflies' wings can be heard as far as Egypt and Korea!

I think that if Britain/France didn't intervene in Egypt in this scenario, the U.S. would. I can't imagine they'd want the USSR to potentially have a direct naval supply line from the Black Sea to their friends in Yemen. It would become too easy to interdict shipping in the Persian Gulf from there or perhaps in an extreme case, launch a north/south pincer movement for the Middle East oilfields.

I think the U.S.'s aversion to colonialism would be overidden by a fear of dominos.

How Israel might play out with a less hostile neighbour to the south though is a whole new can o' worms!

Talos · June 05, 2009, 05:37:00 AM

I'm loving the map, if for the simple reason that I used to live in Livorno when my father was Area Support Team Commander for Camp Darby, the local US Army base, so I laughed when I saw it on the border.

We had a protest by the local Communist Party once, the Carabinari deployed their riot gear and everything in a massive armored truck (they provided base security all the time). They're headquartered there, the Communists in Italy. If I recall, it's the most left-wing city in Italy, so it would make sense for it to be in Communist territory.