M6 Heavy Tanks Questions and What-if Ideas

dy031101 · June 06, 2009, 09:13:41 PM

After reading the Wikipedia article for the M6, I was thinking...... wouldn't a 90mm gun turret (with a MG, not a 37mm cannon, as the co-axial weapon) more practical for this one?

It was said to be actually tested with one and found to be a satisfactory gun platform...... does anyone know how heavy it is by then?

To tell the truth though, I'm actually thinking the 90mm/L70 one used by the M26A1E2 Super Pershing right now......

jcf · June 06, 2009, 10:17:29 PM

The 90mm gun T7 was installed in the T1E1(M6 pilot model), the T7 was later standardized as the 90mm gun M3 and
was the gun installed in the Pershing.

They did mount the turret for the heavy tank T29 (105mm gun T5E1) on two hulls as the M6A2E1.

These facts are mentioned in the M6 Wiki.

Jon

dy031101 · June 06, 2009, 10:26:59 PM

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on June 06, 2009, 10:17:29 PM
They did mount the turret for the heavy tank T29 (105mm gun T5E1) on two hulls as the M6A2E1.

I kinda want something more powerful than a stock M26, but while the M6A2E1 sure sounds powerful, wouldn't it at 77-tonne be too heavy for practical use......?

Which is why I'm thinking about settling for the longer-barrelled 90mm gun from the Super Pershing......

dy031101 · June 07, 2009, 05:57:01 AM

Found this picture......

Doesn't look like it's up-armoured in any way......

thedarkmaster · June 07, 2009, 07:13:38 AM

I have two pictures of the m6a2e1, armed with 105mm aa gun cannot find any weight for it

only one was made

hope this helps somewhat.

dy031101 · June 07, 2009, 08:48:34 AM

Quote from: thedarkmaster on June 07, 2009, 07:13:38 AM
I have two pictures of the m6a2e1, armed with 105mm aa gun cannot find any weight for it

It, with the new turret and increased armours, weighs 77 tonnes.

The new turret also adds to the already-tall profile, and the tank is allegedly unable to climb any slopes steeper than 40%.

dy031101 · June 07, 2009, 09:46:31 AM

Quick-and-dirty (okay I just took the line drawing of M26 turret and lengthened the barrel- since I think that's what Super Pershing is minus the counterweight) illustration of M6 Heavy with a long-barrel 90mm gun.

The M26 turret doesn't seem much taller than that of the M6 original.

As already mentioned, I know I neglected the counterweight......

russcal · June 07, 2009, 09:34:58 PM

Heya, y'all!

Probably the biggest problem with the M6, besides it's towering stature, was that it used a R-1820 (G-200) raduial engine. This engine was at the top end of its performance range for armor applications, and in high demand for aviation use. These factors led to the adoption of the Ford GA series "V" engines as used in the M26 series.

Russ
Proud son of Rose and Wes

dy031101 · June 08, 2009, 10:53:26 AM

I was thinking more of an experimental deployment with vehicles re-built from existing M6 hulls and combined with the turret of the T25 or T26 experimental tanks......

When was the T15 90mm gun first created?

jcf · June 08, 2009, 11:31:11 AM

The Wiki info is largely derived from, Firepower: A History of the American Heavy Tank, by Hunnicutt.

It was proposed that 15 tanks be built with the 105mm T29 turret and be sent to Europe as
'break through' tanks. The modifications were to include the addition of a new armor plates
to the front of the tank, the vertical armor thickness total would have been 7.5 inches.
The projected delivery goal was 15 November, 1944.
On 18 August 1944 Eisenhower said, Thanks, but no thanks because the vehicles were impractical
for operation in the European Theater.

The M6 was very much a non-starter as it was simply an enlarged version of the concepts
that were used in the M4 Sherman. Armament was the least of its problems, the motive
design was dated and no re-gunning can get around that fact.

The 90mm T15 was developed in response to 8.8cm KwK 43 and was originally a towed
anti-tank weapon designated T15E1 with fixed ammunition. Tests of the gun mounted
in T26E1 Number 1 led to the gun being redesigned to use two part ammunition, this modified
weapon received the designation T15E2.

T26E1 Number 1 was the 'Super Pershing' sent to Europe in March 1945, it had the T15E1 using
single part ammo and the external equilibrator springs mounted on the top of the turret.

As the M6 was rear-engine/rear-drive deign it would perhaps be more useful in a Jagdpanzer layout,
it definitely has the necessary internal volume for the 90mm T15 or 105mm T5E1.

dy031101 · June 08, 2009, 02:34:18 PM

I was wondering if the addition of more armours also contributed to the bad mobility when being tested with the 105mm T29 turret.

Don't get me wrong, I too think that the Pershing was a truly viable heavy/medium tank. Just wondering if a particular experimental would have been more interesting and useful than others.

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on June 08, 2009, 11:31:11 AM
The 90mm T15 was developed in response to 8.8cm KwK 43 and was originally a towed
anti-tank weapon designated T15E1 with fixed ammunition.

Was the T15E1 available for use during...... say, later half of 1944?

jcf · June 08, 2009, 02:47:04 PM

Quote from: dy031101 on June 08, 2009, 02:34:18 PM
I was wondering if the addition of more armours also contributed to the bad mobility when being tested with the 105mm T29 turret.

The extra armour was never added.

Quote from: dy031101 on June 08, 2009, 02:34:18 PM
Was the T15E1 available for use during...... say, later half of 1944?

It was under test in that period, so I suppose there were a few examples about.

Doc Yo · June 08, 2009, 02:53:37 PM

Forgive this tangential question- I've seen the first US 'heavy tank'* described as a multi-turret beast
mounting a pair of 75mm and another pair of 37mm cannons. Though I have run across the description
more than once, I've never seen any plans or illustrations of the project. Did it ever get as far as blueprints,
or was it never mor than a list of requirements?

* Discounting the 'Universal' tank of 1918.

jcf · June 08, 2009, 03:17:21 PM

Quote from: Doc Yo on June 08, 2009, 02:53:37 PM
Forgive this tangential question- I've seen the first US 'heavy tank'* described as a multi-turret beast
mounting a pair of 75mm and another pair of 37mm cannons. Though I have run across the description
more than once, I've never seen any plans or illustrations of the project. Did it ever get as far as blueprints,
or was it never mor than a list of requirements?

* Discounting the 'Universal' tank of 1918.

No illustration in Hunnicutt's Firepower, so if he couldn't find one it probably doesn't exist.
He does state that the "military characteristics were revised" by OCM16200 prior to the construction of a mockup.
Those revisions embodied the single turret T1 as built.

dy031101 · June 08, 2009, 03:24:59 PM

Quote from: joncarrfarrelly on June 08, 2009, 02:47:04 PM
The extra armour was never added.

So that big turret from the T29 was enough to bring the weight from 63 tons to 77...... or did the electric transmission also play a role in the M6A2E1 being so heavy?