P&W R-2800 engined MiG-3 Question

[McGreig]

A question for those more technically knowledgeable than me. In Massimo Tessitori's book on the MiG-1/MiG-3 (and I think that I've also seen this in a Yefim Gordon book) it is said that:

"during March 1944 OKB-155 studied the installation on the I-211 (essentially a radial MiG-3) of the Pratt & Whitney R-2800-63 and G.E. S-23 turbo compressor, both as installed on the Republic P-47D-10RE Thunderbolt as supplied by the USA - - - "

But how? Look at the relative sizes of the P-47 and the MiG-3, the size of the P-47's propellor, the shortness of the MiG's undercarriage and the large volume of space taken up on the P-47 by the engine and turbo compressor. Does the R-2800 need the large propellor to deliver its full potential? Can the turbo compressor be shoehorned into the MiG airframe in a different way?

This might make an interesting model if I could work out how to do it. Clearly, simply grafting the P-47 cowling and forward fuselage on to the MiG isn't going to work, so if anyone has any ideas, I'd be grateful. (Apparently, the project was presented to NKAP but it never resulted in a prototype).

[upnorth]

I can't imagine how it would work without scaling up the airframe and basically creating a whole new aircraft in the process.

The engine would probably torque the MiG to pieces if the laminated wood construction of the MiG-3 was kept.

[kitnut617]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Yak-9/11 the same size as a Mig-3.  In the Unlimited Air Race world there's this Yak-11 (I think, might be a 9) which is powered by the R-2800.  There's also one powered by an R-3350.  If they are the same size then this is probably how it would be done.

http://www.hiplanes.com/new/1_72_racers/race_7209.htm

[McGreig]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a Yak-9/11 the same size as a Mig-3. 

Now, why didn't I think of that - I've even got a spare High-Planes kit in the stash somewhere 

You're quite right about the relative sizes. The Yak-11 is based on the Yak-3 which is, if anything, smaller than the MiG-3. (Wing span and area are 9.2m and 14.85 m²  for the Yak and 10.10m and 17.44 m² for the MiG).

This may well be the way to go - if I can dig out the High-Planes racer I can probably graft its front fuselage and engine on to a MiG-3 

Unless, of course, anyone has any other ideas - - -

[JayBee]

The I-211 is mentioned in Bill Gunston's book Aircraft of the Soviet Union (Osprey, 1983) and there is also a photo of it!
Both copyright and the fact that my upload folder is full stop me posting images here, but McGrieg, I will send you an e-mail with the scanned images.

JimB

[redstar72]

If some aircraft had R-2800 engine, it doesn’t mean it must be a monster like the T-Bolt!  . P-47 was a long-range escort fighter, and the main reason for its size was a need for carrying a lot of fuel – not the engine! Look at the P-47 cutaway:



The R-2800 itself wasn’t any giant – it was 1342 mm in diameter, while the M-82/ASh-82 was 1260 mm. A little Bearcat, for example, also was powered by R-2800. And the Polikarpov I-185, even smaller than MiG-3, had M-71 engine, which was larger than R-2800! The M-71 (1375 mm in diameter) was actually a “doubled” M-62, while M-62 was a modified M-25, which was a license-built Wright R-1820 Cyclone – so, M-71 is, in fact, a Soviet “brother” of R-3350! 

If the MiG with R-2800 engine would be built, it exactly would NOT look as MiG-3 with P-47 nose. I think it would be similar to I-211, with slightly larger diameter of engine cowling (about 1 mm in 1/72 scale) and, maybe, with a little bit longer tail (because R-2800 was about 200 kg heavier than M-82). And the turbo-compressor could be placed outside on the board, as it was on some other Soviet aircraft of that time:

[redstar72]

And also, it's a little incorrect to name the I-211 as "radial MiG-3". The real radial MiG-3 was I-210, also called MiG-9M-82:


http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/mig9-1.html

And the I-211 (MiG-9E) was a redesigned version, with much better performance. In fact, it became very different from MiG-3:


http://www.airwar.ru/enc/fww2/i211.html

[jcf]

The M-82F(Ash-82F) used in the I-211 is dimensionally very similar in size to the R-2800 -63 used in the P-47.

Ash-82F
14 cyl, dual row radial
Takeoff power: 1,850 hp @ 2,500 rpm
Weight: 938 kg (2,067 lbs)
Length: 2,005 mm (78.94 in)
Diameter: 1,260 mm (49.61in)

R-2800-63
18 cyl, dual row radial
Takeoff power: 2,000 hp @ 2,500 rpm
Weight: 1,027.38 kg (2,265 lbs)
Length: 1,923.3 mm (75.72 in)
Diameter: 1,333.5 mm (52.5in)

As redstar points out the bulk of the P-47 design has more to do with its intended role, and ancestry, than it does with its power-plant.

Also, as pointed out, while the I-210 was basically a MiG-3 with a radial engine, the I-211 featured an extensively redesigned fuselage.
MiG's work on the I-211 was all handed over to Lavochkin on orders from higher ups and was used to develop the La-5.

[McGreig]

Thanks for the information everyone

Redstar, your P-47 cutaway and the notes on the Bearcat and I-185 were particularly useful, as was Kitnut's reference to the Yak-11 racer. Jon, thanks for the comparative engine data.
But, Guys, I use Lenin as my avatar because I'm leader of the IPMS-UK Soviet Aircraft SIG.

I know all about the differences between the the I-210 and I-211 - I was just trying to keep it simple  as my question was about how you fitted the Thunderbolt's engine into what is still essentially a MiG-3 airframe (and if I model this, it'll start life as a MiG-3 because I've got a lot of them  )
But thanks again for taking the time to reply so quickly - this project is now a lot closer to being turned into plastic 

[jcf]

But, Guys, I use Lenin as my avatar because I'm leader of the IPMS-UK Soviet Aircraft SIG.

Fair enough, but, why would we know that?

The AEHS website has a page of engine references that include PDFs of P&W and Wright engine data, useful stuff
when looking at engine swaps:
http://www.enginehistory.org/reference.htm

[McGreig]

Fair enough, but, why would we know that?

Because when two modellers get together, they inevitably talk of my legendary modelling exploits.   They don't??!! 
Well, how about that I've had a display at every Scale Modelworld since Bleriot crossed the Channel? What do you mean, "wrong side of the Atlantic"?!   Errrmm -  Mike McEvoy once mentioned me in his column in Scale Aircraft Modelling?   Still not convinced?

OK, I admit it - I don't think that I've ever mentioned the SIG on this Forum. But, just the same, what's happened to everybody's ESP - - - 
(Oh, and thanks for the link - that looks like an interesting site)

[GTX]

what's happened to everybody's ESP

Mne got switched off after people started taking offence to my thoughts...

Regards,

Greg

[upnorth]

Right, I'll be knitting over in the corner should someone need me for anything.