Made In China

[Maverick]

One does wonder if we aren't falling into the same habits as during the Cold War with regards to China.  Many learned sources happily put down anything coming out of China as 3rd rate & primitive, in much the same way as they did prior to the then unknown crop of Soviet superfighters (eg: Su-27 family & MiG-29) & attack Helos (Mi-24, 28, Ka-50) coming into service.  We're constantly spoonfed information about how good everything is from one certain country and how superior it is to anything else.  I kinda hope young military men (& women now of course) don't have to learn the hard way that life isn't quite that black & white.

Regards,

Mav

[dy031101]

While I absolutely agree that the way how some people dismissed anything from the RPC and the Eastern-Bloc has long ventured into "ridiculous" territories, I'd still want to know why is it that technologies function as steroids for PAK-FA and J-20 but by default hallucinogens for F-35 and F/A-18E/F, even taking into consideration the belief that nothings beats any possible export version of the F-22?

[ChernayaAkula]

I think you'll find that there is a lot more than just a few photos on the net about this aircraft.  Its existence has been rumoured for years and Chris Mills isn't one to over-react.  When one considers that he's talking primarily about electronic systems as a measure of performance, you might like to reconsider your conclusion about the article.

No, I might not like to. Basing the assumption that, as he put it, "this design outperforms the F/A-18E/F and F-35 JSF in every important respect" (not limiting it to electronic capabilities), on rumours and a few pics is reaching at best.
And as dy said, "why is it that technologies function as steroids for PAK-FA and J-20 but by default hallucinogens for F-35 and F/A-18E/F"? The article doesn't really answer that. It posits that the J-20 will be able to close under emission control and search with IRST and ESM. Does he suppose the F-35 won't do the same?
Of the J-20, what we've seen so far is a prototype. That doesn't say anything about it's actual capabilities electronic-wise. Who knows how the Chinese will manage the RAM-coating (which apparently proves to be a bigger problem than anticipated for the USAF Raptor fleet)? What about the engine?
Sorry, but there are just too many unknown variables claimed to be answered to call the article anything else than reaching.

[GTX]

Yawn!  Oh CK didn't implode when the F-111 was retired...of damn, I had hoped!

Agree with the comments above from ChernayaAkula and dy031101.

Regards,

Greg

[rickshaw]

Yawn!  Oh CK didn't implode when the F-111 was retired...of damn, I had hoped!

Agree with the comments above from ChernayaAkula and dy031101.

Regards,

Greg

EXCEPT, Carlo didn't write it...  It refers to some of his work though.  Which I note has appeared in refereed journals.

[rickshaw]

While I absolutely agree that the way how some people dismissed anything from the RPC and the Eastern-Bloc has long ventured into "ridiculous" territories, I'd still want to know why is it that technologies function as steroids for PAK-FA and J-20 but by default hallucinogens for F-35 and F/A-18E/F, even taking into consideration the belief that nothings beats any possible export version of the F-22?

Different design paths produce different results.  Whereas the F/A-18E/F and F-35 were designed to counter aircraft of a previous generation, the PAK-FA and J-20 appear designed specifically to counter both those US aircraft.  There is also a tendency for some people to automatically fall into chauvinism and assume that if its US==good and Russian/Chinese==bad.  Just because something is different it does not mean it is bad.

However, you point out perhaps one of the flaws with the analysis (and don't do the usual automatically negative over-reaction).

[GTX]

EXCEPT, Carlo didn't write it...  It refers to some of his work though.

Anything that comes from that bunch of clowns is all the same.

Greg

[dy031101]

Different design paths produce different results.  Whereas the F/A-18E/F and F-35 were designed to counter aircraft of a previous generation, the PAK-FA and J-20 appear designed specifically to counter both those US aircraft.

While I have no problem with the above statement, I don't think such a notion would or should automatically render the F-35 impotent by default.

F-35 represents a departure from raw strength of individual units and a move into networked warfare.  And I think many people are throwing flaks at the F-35 over this departure just because- they either cannot or will not explain why it's a bad idea to no longer tackle warfare through sheer brute strength.  No way to carry out a discussion, if you ask me.

It would be foolish to assume that the Russians or the Chinese would accept anything less than formidable for their flagship projects, and we can say the PAK-FA and J-20 is designed to counter the F-35 all we want- but what does it mean?  Are they merely meant to beat the F-35 one-on-one, when the F-35 is isolated from the network it is a part of, or do they in themselves have measures to isolate the F-35 from that network?  The article keeps emphasizing on the kinematics of Eastern-Bloc fighters- what can they do to render useless other survivability measures of the F-35 in a fight, or are we going back to the "Vietnam War experience" argument?  (Frankly I think Vietnam War is long gone, both literally and figuratively, when it comes to technology.)

Then came the question as to how much we understand how well the F-35 does its job.  We know its maneuverability is better than that of a F-16...... but by how much?  Is it "insignificantly better" or "better to a new level"?

Alright I think we ought to leave it to dedicated F-35/PAK-FA/J-20 threads......  

(As for over-reaction...... nah, I'm from Taiwan after all- any enthusiast worth his/her salt there regularly bear witness to clashes between Eastern and Western chauvinisms.  )

(As for F/A-18E/F...... I find it hard to believe that a Super Hornet armed with a full suite of ASEA radar and self-protection ECM gears, JHMCS, AIM-120C/D AMRAAMs, and AIM-9X Sidewinders would be able to do "nothing other than watch itself dying" against a 5th Generation fighter, too, especially when again external supporting assets are available......)

[Taiidantomcat]

F-35 (which is nothing more than a stealthified Su-17-class "terrorist buster")

Sure it is. 



I know its a fun game to play, but lets play it elsewhere

This is Tibetan Camo used by the PLA. My brother has a set and I hope to apply it to an aircraft sometime in the future

[thedarkmaster]

Oh yes putting your best looking and well equipped troops at the front for the photo....works every time

[Henry Yeh]

Not sure flecktarn goes well on aircrafts.

[rickshaw]

Its hard to judge a camouflage scheme's effectiveness outside of the environment and context in which it is meant to be used.  What looks good on the ramp doesn't always migrate well to the field.

[NARSES2]

Oh yes putting your best looking and well equipped troops at the front for the photo....works every time

I want to know how much trouble the third one in line got into for "oggling whilst on parade" ? Don't suppose they have spud bashing in the PLA, rice husking perhaps ?

[rickshaw]

Oh yes putting your best looking and well equipped troops at the front for the photo....works every time

I want to know how much trouble the third one in line got into for "oggling whilst on parade" ? Don't suppose they have spud bashing in the PLA, rice husking perhaps ?

Thats just part of normal duties in the Worker's Revolutionary Army!  Here we see them irrigating crops to help the workers and peasants! 

[Sauragnmon]

The worst part of the J-XX from a Modeler's perspective... is it'll be years before we see a kit of it, unlike Zvezda and Russian aircraft.