Old Small Arms Revived...... With Some Tweaks

[Sauragnmon]

Suppressed weapons in themselves aren't fully silent, this is true, but it limits the ability of those hearing it, to those who are close to the round in flight, as the air distortions of the bullet itself are somewhat limited in the range they will travel.  It's not perfectly silent, as yes, there are the three factors of noise to silence - the explosion, the bullet's air distortions due to supersonic speed, and the mechanical action - but suppressing the boom is a good start.

[Aircav]

I know you wern't suggesting that, there was a lot of politics involved with the EM-2/FAL rifle, the EM-2 was adopted during the Labour Goverment as the service No9 Rifle but then Churchill got back in power it was scrapped in favour of the Imperial FAL, the L1A1 SLR and it had a lot to do with the ammunition the 7.62x51mm NATO round, short 30-06.

Still doesn't explain why they would trial a weapon in an unusual calibre when the calibre had already, by that time well and truly chosen.  The timeline doesn't support them conducting field trials of the FN-FAL in the 7.92x33mm round in Korea, I'm sorry.

Well John was using one there, you can never tell why the army does things sometimes

[rickshaw]

Well John was using one there, you can never tell why the army does things sometimes

And old soldier's memories occasionally play them false as well (I should know, I'm one! ).   I'll put this down as "interesting but unproven" at the moment.

[Aircav]

When he told me about it I was a bit sceptical at the time too thinking he got the calibre wrong but after quizzing him a bit more he was adamant that they were 7.92kurz calibre and he did know his calibres.

[dy031101]

Would you think that the benefits gained by replacing the stocks on old rifles with more ergonomical ones and fitting good sniper scopes would be worth the efforts?

Like the picture (a modded M14) enclosed below, but for venerable ones like M1903, M1 Garand, Mosin-Nagant, and Russian contract Winchester 1895......

[dragon]

Yeah, unless it's designed ambidextrous and you can switch the ejection pattern on the fly for lefthanders.  I had an action I thought was a pretty novel idea, maybe one day... who knows.  Let's just say, it was a Downward Ejection system on the layout, and the casings would have been cool-ish by the time they dropped due to the way the action worked.  I guess alternately you could set it up to release casings down the side, but we're not getting into that.

Actually the FN P-90 and their rifle design (I forge what it's designation do this).  The P-90 ejects downwards, the rifle ejects forwards in a chamber of sorts.

[Sauragnmon]

Replacing stocks - I would imagine that's a self-answering question, as you're improving not only the ergonomics but perhaps the recoil reductive ability of the stock, which makes it easier to use, more so over the long term.

P-90/FN-2000 - I knew about the FN-2000's forward ejection, and find myself unsurprised about the P-90's downward ejection, considering the layout of the action in the weapon.  My conceptual action was laid out rather differently from the FN designs, however.

[dy031101]

Replacing stocks - I would imagine that's a self-answering question, as you're improving not only the ergonomics but perhaps the recoil reductive ability of the stock, which makes it easier to use, more so over the long term.

I just found out that apparently some manufacturers are producing new stocks for conversion of WWII battle rifles into hunting rifles...... (and sniper rifles are militarized hunting rifles, right?)

The guns in the enclosed pic are converted from (in the order from top to bottom) Enfield No.4, Mauser, and Mosin-Nagant.  I wonder if these rifles still retain their original reloading mechanisms after the conversion......

[Sauragnmon]

Looks like the SMLE and the Mosin-Nagant do, not quite sure about the Mauser - the Nagant rifle was notable for keeping its iron sights even with the scope bolted on, as they have the mount on the side and lifted above the old sights.

[dy031101]

Looks like the SMLE and the Mosin-Nagant do, not quite sure about the Mauser - the Nagant rifle was notable for keeping its iron sights even with the scope bolted on, as they have the mount on the side and lifted above the old sights.

The converted rifles appear to have adopted new scope mounts.

Hum...... I don't know, I've never seen the converted rifles in action......

[B777LR]

I just found out that apparently some manufacturers are producing new stocks for conversion of WWII battle rifles into hunting rifles...... (and sniper rifles are militarized hunting rifles, right?)

While sniper rifles in the west up to the 1980s may have been based on hunting rifles, i doubt modern rifles are. How many hunting rifles use 12.7 mm, 14.5 mm, 20 mm, 25 mm and 15.2 mm ammunition? If not using any of these, i it probably based upon a battle rifle.

[ChernayaAkula]

Would you think that the benefits gained by replacing the stocks on old rifles with more ergonomical ones and fitting good sniper scopes would be worth the efforts?

Depends on what you want to achieve. I guess you could buy conversion kits and new rifles. Or buying an outright new design. By using the old barrel and chamber you keep the ballistics. And using plastic stocks makes them lighter and less susceptible to torsions that happen with wood stocks due to humidity or temperature, while it allows for standardized mounts for scopes, bipods and all that  to be attached. Also, plastic is probably easier to paint and repaint. So at the end of the day, it's probably cost that leads to these rifles getting a new lease of life.

The M14 is a proven, very accurate design using a standard ammo. The combinations of bullets, rifle twist, powder and ballistics in general are already known (and probably manuals and SOPs been written with those in mind) and proven. So fitting them with new stocks makes sense, as you just have to redesign the stocks and not a whole lot of the working parts.

I don't know whether it would make sense to convert older rifles such as the SMLE or Mosin-Nagants. I guess there are not enough of those around to make conversions economically viable (at least for military users, maybe less so for "gun nuts" that want to convert their own rifles), while there are probably still enough M14s around.

[dy031101]

While sniper rifles in the west up to the 1980s may have been based on hunting rifles, i doubt modern rifles are. How many hunting rifles use 12.7 mm, 14.5 mm, 20 mm, 25 mm and 15.2 mm ammunition? If not using any of these, i it probably based upon a battle rifle.

I only asked in a figurative way...... at least I don't see too many differences between sport/hunting rifles and sniper rifles of 7.62mm or 5.56mm calibers......

So at the end of the day, it's probably cost that leads to these rifles getting a new lease of life.

I was hoping exactly that.

Yeah, only for individual countries that have enough rifles held in reserve for themselves, the upgrade kits likely not being mass-produced to the level of M14 conversions.

[dragon]

Would you think that the benefits gained by replacing the stocks on old rifles with more ergonomical ones and fitting good sniper scopes would be worth the efforts?

The M14 is a proven, very accurate design using a standard ammo. The combinations of bullets, rifle twist, powder and ballistics in general are already known (and probably manuals and SOPs been written with those in mind) and proven. So fitting them with new stocks makes sense, as you just have to redesign the stocks and not a whole lot of the working parts.

I don't know whether it would make sense to convert older rifles such as the SMLE or Mosin-Nagants. I guess there are not enough of those around to make conversions economically viable (at least for military users, maybe less so for "gun nuts" that want to convert their own rifles), while there are probably still enough M14s around.

Also, Springfield Armory sells them as the M1A for $1500.00 US$ for the most basic.  Their SOCOM version is interesting but not aesthetically pleasing (admitedly not usually a consideration when choosing a rifle).  I have also seen some combined with folding stocks similar to what you would find on an M4...

[jcf]

Replacing stocks - I would imagine that's a self-answering question, as you're improving not only the ergonomics but perhaps the recoil reductive ability of the stock, which makes it easier to use, more so over the long term.

I just found out that apparently some manufacturers are producing new stocks for conversion of WWII battle rifles into hunting rifles...... (and sniper rifles are militarized hunting rifles, right?)

The guns in the enclosed pic are converted from (in the order from top to bottom) Enfield No.4, Mauser, and Mosin-Nagant.  I wonder if these rifles still retain their original reloading mechanisms after the conversion......

People have been commercially sporterizing military longarms since just after the US Civil War. Nothing new.
My brother has my Dad's old sporterized Canadian Ross WWI rifle and a Pattern 17 Enfield that had a
sporterized stock, we converted it back to original issue appearance with a NOS stock and hardware
we bought over twenty-five years ago.

One of my guns (also part of what was my Father's collection, he split it up between Tom and I a few years back),
is a post-Civil War Peabody breach-loading conversion of a Tower Enfield .58-cal rifled-musket that was at some
time in its life cut down into a smooth-bore saddle-gun. The patina on the gun is amazing and if it could talk I
imagine it has some stories to tell.

As all the guns in question in the posted pic are bolt-action weapons, yes they retain their original mechanism.

Jon