Old Small Arms Revived...... With Some Tweaks

[Talos]

Lever's all good and all (I absolutely love my classic old Winchester 1894 in .30-30)....at least until you're in the prone position and have to chamber a round. 

[Weaver]

If you look at the typical mag-feed assault rifle, the magazine is deeper than the movement range of a lever-action, so if the latter was mag-fed, there shouldn't be a problem. If it's tube-fed, then fair comment, but how often would it be a problem in practice?

[Aircav]

If someone decides to take a lever action rifle for tactical use, what's the first role you would imagine the gun to be used for?

I just got curious about it and decided to do an internet browsing...... some interesting stuff here- look at Post #6.

Does anyone here have experience with Winchester Model 88 and SAKO Finnwolf?  I found them interesting in that they use box magazines instead of tubular ones, allowing the use of modern "pointed tip" rifle cartridges, and am wondering how they compare against bolt-action guns.

There was the Winchester Model 1895 which had a box magazine but for tactical how about these's 

[pyro-manic]

Anyone seen Firefly/Serenity?

[dy031101]

I don't know gunsmithing so I'm asking this: can individual gunsmith take the action and box magazine of, say, Winchester Model 1895 (I am especially fascinated with the Russian Contract guns, which use ammos and stripper clips of Mosin Nagant bolt-action rifles) and turn them into a scope-equipped hunting/marksman's rifle?

[Aircav]

If you have a good gunsmith and can fine a good rifle/action theres no reason why not.  

http://www.leverguns.com/exploded_view/images/1895win.jpg

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/model_1895.htm

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/featured_rifles/big_0401/

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=7122

http://www.chuckhawks.com/winchester_1895.htm

[Aircav]

Some excellent articles here on shooting 
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/Default.htm

[jcf]

I don't know gunsmithing so I'm asking this: can individual gunsmith take the action and box magazine of, say, Winchester Model 1895 (I am especially fascinated with the Russian Contract guns, which use ammos and stripper clips of Mosin Nagant bolt-action rifles) and turn them into a scope-equipped hunting/marksman's rifle?

Well seeing as the Model 1895 was sold as a hunting arm before being produces as a military contract weapon, the answer is an unequivocal yes.

The 8th edition of Flayderman's Guide to Antique American Firearms gives avalue range of  $750 (Very good) to $2500(Excellent) fro the
Russian Model Musket, which was the only Model 1895 produced with the clip guides.

BTW there was actually little practical or technical difference between 'civilian' and 'military' arms until the post-WWII era,
prior to that 'twas generally a matter of details.

[Talos]

If you look at the typical mag-feed assault rifle, the magazine is deeper than the movement range of a lever-action, so if the latter was mag-fed, there shouldn't be a problem. If it's tube-fed, then fair comment, but how often would it be a problem in practice?

It was more in comment to dy's idea of making a lever-action marksman's rifle. Seeing as you could be firing from a prone position frequently, any method of reloading that forces you to not only take your eye from the scope, but lift your rifle and take the barrel off the target is an instant failure. You can reload a bolt-action without doing that easily.

[Fulcrum]

Did anyone had an idea of recalibering old AK-47s from the normal 7.62x39 Soviet round to the NATO-standard 7.62x54 round.
(A source reports that the 7.62x39 SVD Dragonov has a version that fires 7.62x54 rounds.)

[Logan Hartke]

You've got some caliber confusion going on.  NATO is not 7.62x54mm, it's 7.62x51mm.  Neither is the Dragunov 7.62x39mm Soviet (AK), it's 7.62x54mmR Russian.  There are some Dragunov variants/conversions in 7.62x51mm NATO, but even that's not super-common (though they've been around for decades).

There are next to no AK-variants firing 7.62x51mm.  The reason is that it's easy to convert a weapon to a smaller round (7.62x39mm -> 7.62x51mm) or even increase or decrease the bore (drill out or insert a sleeve into the barrel), but when you increase the chamber length, you're running into issues.  It's more common to see weapons that go from 7.62x54mmR to 7.62x51mm NATO than it is the other way around.  That's also because it's easier to go from rimmed to rimless than the other way around.

Anyway, the only AK variants I'm aware of that are chambered for the 7.62x51mm NATO round are:

Yugoslavian M77 (variant of the 7.62x54mmR Zastava M76 sniper rifle)
Romanian PL-54 (variant of the 7.62x54mmR PSL sniper rifle)
Valmet Petra (variant of the 7.62x39mm Rk 62 assault rifle)
Galil 7.62 (variant of the 5.56mm Galil assault rifle)

All of these were extensive modifications of the AK action and were completely new weapons, not ever conversions of weapons originally chambered for 7.62x39mm Soviet (to my knowledge).

They're just too different in size, the NATO round is so much larger.  See the picture below.  The cartridge on the far left is the 7.62x51mm NATO and the dark one next to is the 7.62x39mm Soviet (AK).



Cheers,

Logan

[Sauragnmon]

The action is well noted, and well loved, and is repeated in a number of weapons and calibers, probably the largest being the Saiga assault shotguns, in 20mm and 12-gauge.

Of course, to add to the narrative, the picture Logan posted features five of what one might call the most influential rounds in the world.  From the left:

7.62x52mm NATO standard
7.62x39mm Soviet M43 - the dark case is because it is lacquered steel, unlike the brass elsewhere.
7.62x54mm Soviet - from the Mosin-Nagant, and onward - a rather old round, with noted performance.
5.45x39mm Soviet - AK-74, basically a necked-down 7.62x39mm round, thus why the casings look so close.
5.56x45mm NATO - The new standard round.  You can see here why it's not such a take-down round, owing to the lack of kinetic force with the tiny slug.  It'll cause more damage on the inside, but it takes more time for the target to realize it.

[Logan Hartke]

Sorry, Sauragnmon.  Kudos for giving it a shot, however.  I'd not have even tried.  I'm not that good at IDing rounds.

The first two I already gave in my post.  Of the remainder, you went 1 for 3.  The one on the far right is indeed the 5.56x45mm NATO.

The middle round cannot be the 7.62x54mmR.  You can tell it is not rimmed.  You can also eyeball it and tell the caliber is much less than the two rounds to it's left (7.62mm).  It is in fact the 6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser cartridge.  Nice round, actually.  You'd never tell it's 55mm long when you fire it.  Low recoil and great accuracy.

The fourth round is probably my favorite modern round.  The much-debated 6.5mm Grendel.  Its performance depends on who you ask.  Ask Alexander and it can shoot down satellites.  Jury's still out for everyone else, though.

I think you'd rather look at the attached image.

The three dark rounds on the left are Russian/Soviet.  The larger, rimmed one is the 7.62x54mmR.  The next two are AK rounds: 7.62x39mm and 5.45x39mm.  The two on the right are the NATO standards (7.62x51mm & 5.56x45mm).

Cheers,

Logan

[apophenia]

The middle round in Logan's first image looks more like Swedish 6.5x55mm.

[To its right is 6.5mm Grendel ... speaking of modifying AKs  ]

[Sauragnmon]

Ah, my bad... I thought I had them nailed.  Should have known something was odd when I didn't see a proper rim on it like that.  That and I wasn't even thinking of the odd rounds like the Grendel - I've heard a lot of positive on the Grendel, didn't know it was similar length to the AK cartridge though.  I'm betting that Swedish Mauser round would punch through armor quite nicely, with a sleek yet heavy round like that - all the mass on a small, sleek tapered round.

Probably one of the most interesting oddballs to me is the 6.8mm SPC, which can apparently, on a package not much bigger than the 5.56, put out the kinetic force of the 7.62 NATO without the massive recoil, and I've seen it go through a windshield like a hot knife through butter.

Interesting to note that in Logan's second pic, again, all the Russian cartridges are lacquered steel instead of brass.