Old Small Arms Revived...... With Some Tweaks

[rickshaw]

It is indeed.  That is what I assume is meant.

[Maverick]

The one thing I never understood about the US military training was their preponderance to let their pistol-grip hand come off the weapon with alarming regularity.  The first thing any serviceman (or woman) is taught in Australia is that this hand remains on the grip at all times (within reason).  I think the US use of the sling to help stabilise the weapon is an odd one myself because if that's what you're taught, what happens if the thing breaks?

Oh, and Dy, the G3 whilst a superb weapon, is ancient history to be perfectly frank.

Regards,

Mav

[dy031101]

Oh, and Dy, the G3 whilst a superb weapon, is ancient history to be perfectly frank.

True, but PSG-1 and MSG-90 are still pretty famous, and any suggestion of a counterpart still intrigues me. 

Or this, derivative of another old design (FAL in this case) said to have competed for the US Army's SASS programme.

[Maverick]

Dy,

No doubt the PSG-1 & MSG-90 are superlative weapons.  The baseline G3 mechanics are quite good, which is why HK have utilised them through a variety of weapons & calibre.  I've read the PSG-1 is about as finely tuned as you can get but isn't really a field weapon, more a Police or Counter-Terrorist type, which of course is why they developed the MSG-90.

I was aware of DSA's shorty FALs but wasn't aware of the sniper variations.  Is it just me though or are many weapons becoming very samey in looks.

Regards,

Mav

[dy031101]

I came across these pictures of what is said ot be Vietnamese derivative of XM177E2 developed via the experience with repairing and maintaining captured guns.

Does anyone have information on it?  Other than a different flashhider, did the Vietnamese make any other adaptations?



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I was aware of DSA's shorty FALs but wasn't aware of the sniper variations.

That rounds things out pretty well IMHO   , as the last generation of battle rifles to see widespread service tend to eventually spawn at least a designated marksman rifle derivative.

To really look different, I'd imagine the Bullpup is a sure way to go, seeing that Picatinny rails have become all the rage nowadays.

[Maverick]

Interesting pics Dy. 

It looks like they've added a supressor which was almost a must-have due to the XMs barrel length.  The guys in the 'leopard spot' cammies don't have supressors on theirs however, so it might be a SF issue thing.  What really surprises me is that the weapons look like brand new XM-177s altho the SF guys (if that's what they are) are only toting 20rd mags instead of the 30rds the other soldier has.  Given they were chambered for 5.56mm ammo, one wonders about the choice of the Vietnamese to adopt the weapon even in small numbers.

Regards,

Mav

[dy031101]

All of the add-on or stand-alone night vision devices that I have seen tend to require the rifle to be equipped with Weaver or Picatinny rails.

What about those with just one or two scope rings?  For examples, this, this, and this (as an extreme one)- is there any night vision hunting or sniper scopes for them?

(This is probably as close as my online search got.  Please feel free to nominate better items.  )



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Given they were chambered for 5.56mm ammo, one wonders about the choice of the Vietnamese to adopt the weapon even in small numbers.

Maybe they have passed on introducing the AK-74, so the XM117 development serves as the Vietnamese counterpart to the AKS-74U?

(Of course they could also have developed a short-barrel version of the AK-47 like the PRC did.)

[ChernayaAkula]

<...> Given they were chambered for 5.56mm ammo, one wonders about the choice of the Vietnamese to adopt the weapon even in small numbers.

They could probably gets loads of ammo from China, now that they're in each other's good lads clubs again. NORINCO copied both the M16 and the M4 and also fabricates the ammo for it.

[Maverick]

Dy,

Rails aren't the only adaptation for NVDs.  M1 carbines with IR sights from the late 40s were available & Soviet NVDs simply replaced the standard scope mount on AKs & SVDs (that is to say, those weapons with scope mounts in the first place).  I've also got a pic from an IMI (Israel Military Industries) advertisement for the Galil and that has a Soviet style side-mount.

Even a weapon as modern as the G36 (the versions with the carry handle & sight) can have an NVD added as part of the design without a MIL-STD rail.

Moritz, fair call on the ammo.  Just hope for Vietnam's sake they don't have another tiff with China, otherwise they might find themselves hard up for ammo.

Regards,

Mav

[Maverick]

Dy,

My best guess on the Vietnamese XM might be that they were after a compact carbine type weapon for their paras & SF.  As you say, since they didn't go down the AK-74 route, they weren't going to be across the -74 shorties so indeed, perhaps they opted for something they had experience with rather than something new.  Shorty AK-47s & AKMs have been developed, although like most larger calibre weapons, the shorter variants tend to be a shade uncomfortable for the shooter.

Regards,

Mav

[rickshaw]

I came across these pictures of what is said ot be Vietnamese derivative of XM177E2 developed via the experience with repairing and maintaining captured guns.

Does anyone have information on it?  Other than a different flashhider, did the Vietnamese make any other adaptations?

From looking at those pictures, that flash eliminator looks to me much more like a sound suppressor.  There are no holes along its sides to allow gas escape, which most flash eliminators have.

[dy031101]

Rails aren't the only adaptation for NVDs.  M1 carbines with IR sights from the late 40s were available & Soviet NVDs simply replaced the standard scope mount on AKs & SVDs (that is to say, those weapons with scope mounts in the first place).  I've also got a pic from an IMI (Israel Military Industries) advertisement for the Galil and that has a Soviet style side-mount.

Part of the intellectual exercise is to look for a NVD that can be used on rifles with 1" scope ring (hence my involving the Fulton Armory's slightly-updated M1C Garand Sniper for an example )

I've also seen instances where government agencies in various countries adopt civilian hunting rifles as sniper weapons; granted they have drilled and tapped receivers to take scope mounts, but I don't kow if that covers weaver rails as only scope rings have ever been shown in cases that I've seen.

From looking at those pictures, that flash eliminator looks to me much more like a sound suppressor.  There are no holes along its sides to allow gas escape, which most flash eliminators have.

Note the next post on that page: (as Maverick has observed) the suppressor appears to be optional. The plain-vanilla guns have birdcage flashiders.

The display of suppressors might be to highlight the nature of their users, not necessarily due to their availability.  I, like Maverick, am under the impression that the blue camouflage could be denoting SF operators (stealth-oriented) and the 'Leopard Spot' camo might suggest airborne troops (compactness-oriented).  As for why the 20-round mags were shown...... maybe saving weight for the parade?  Just a guess.

Iran has an industry that supports firearms chambered for the ammo as well.  Don't know about India- at least they bought their initial stock from Israel.

Wikipedia claims that AK-74s are in limited service with Naval Infantry and SF units, but since I've never seen any picture of Vietnamese troops using the weapon, and since they went on issuing derivatives of the XM177...... it could always be that the AK-74 family couldn't beat the Colt Commando for their choice of weapons.

EDIT: I look at the webpage some more...... it appear that the blue uniform is that of the Vietnam Marine Police, a coast guard organization that was subordinate to the Vietnamese navy until 2008, and that the 'Leopard Spot' uniforms are that of the VPA's special forces.

[rickshaw]

I think you'll find that there are economic factors at work in the Vietnamese choice.  Combination of domestic production versus imports, versus perhaps which military unit makes them (I listened to a very interesting paper a few weeks ago which explained the Vietnamese military's involvement - heavy involvement - in the domestic, civilian economy and it appears entire units are given over to industrial production and so have a vested interest in consumption of what they produce.  This might therefore have led to units producing their own weapons in their own industrial plant and then on selling them to other military units either a commercial venture or even as part or full payment on services/production that the other units provide!  As to why this military/industrial complex has been created its a complex story about the Vietnamese economy post-Cambodian war).

[Maverick]

Dy,

I have seen examples of scopes that are designed for standard scope rings that are touted as "Night Vision", but the reality is somewhat different.  They aren't true NVD as that scope you linked to shows.  I have however seen a setup on various US sniper systems that has an NVD mounted ahead of the day scope allowing night-vision capability.  This however is a rail based system.

Regards,

Mav

[dy031101]

I, too, had similar feeling after reading some promotional stuff on scopes, which talk about night vision as in having a reticle that is well-illuminated in darkness.  

Makes me wonder what those scopes should be paired with when really employed during night time hunting or combat.



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What exactly does the gas block do?  I know in many cases it also serves as a front sight base, but since I'm not well-knowledge on the inner workings of a gun, what does it do otherwise?

Would its being attached to the barrel or not be factored into whether the barrel is free-floating or not?  Or is the gas block supposed to be attached to the barrel regardless?

Thanks in advance.