Question - USAF/E in Finland

nev · August 30, 2009, 10:41:32 AM

Interesting idea - I came up with a similar idea a few years back, but in my scenario Finland joins NATO in the 80s, with the wholehearted backing of Ronnie and Maggie, resulting in something of a confrontation with Russia....

How about checking out the disbanded units thread Geoff? There's got to be a ton of USAAF units from WW2 that were disbanded that have promising markings.

And don't forget all the transport/rotary types with all the opportunities for hi-vis arctic markings

Geoff · August 30, 2009, 02:18:38 PM

Hi Nev,
Hmm Ronnie's "Evil Empire" I hadn't thought of that. That would be a good place to change the timeline as well I think. Especially with Glasnost and the internal unrest in the USSR at the time.

I want to do it earlier as, ok, basically I like the earlier jets. The Soviet Union was too strong in the 1950's and 60's and would not have tolerated such a move. Just look at the East German riots in the late 40's, and the Hungarian and Czech invasions etc when any degree of liberalism was suggested let alone leaving the happy family of workers democracies. Although I did wonder about 1968 as a possible point of change. I expect a move to the west at that point would have prompted another Soviet invasion. So the best time is just after WW2 as the country is not occupied as such. However the 80's would definately work as well, if not better.

I have been looking at the disbanded units thread with that in mind. But copped out as I have decals for the German based units.

I had forgotten about the USAF's artic markings - thanks thats a good idea!

upnorth · September 02, 2009, 08:04:34 AM

I like the idea.

Aren't the decisions about what a foreign military can or can't station at the discresion of the host country?

I thought F-111s were based in the UK because Germany said no to having them stationed on their soil. Something about aircraft that could be used in strategic, or near strategic strike roles so close to Warsaw Pact borders, or something of the like...

What about putting A-10s in Finland? I've seen enough models and profiles of A-10s in some form or another of winter camo that it would be the perfect place to station them.

OV-10 Broncos might do well in Finland, you can do a bunch of stuff with them.

Of course a unit of Recce Phantoms would go without saying when you're that close to the border

You could have a chain of rapid reactor fighters through the years. Work your way from Super Sabres, Voodoos, F-106, F-4, F-15 and then lighten from F-15s to Vipers after 1990 or so.

Geoff · September 02, 2009, 03:16:02 PM

I think you are right about the host country having a veto on what is based there, IIRC New Zealand stopped R.N. ships docking there as we would not confirm they were not carrying nukes.

I like the idea of the recce Phantoms, and A-10's, and the line up of the fighters was the sort of thing I was thinking of.

Radish · September 03, 2009, 02:42:27 AM

F-104Cs were deployed during the Berlin Crisis of '61, so some ANG units like those are possibilities. Especially if the USAF had had around 2000 F-104s instead of a few hundred altogether.
Might the F-104G have been ideal? With Norway and Denmark buying too?

I like the idea of Finnish A-10s, especially 2-seaters.
And USAF A-10s in an experimental "European 2" camouflage scheme....same colours as Lizard "European 1" but with a hard-edge splinter scheme?

Geoff · September 03, 2009, 01:09:28 PM

I was thinking of the Finns getting the F-104G family. With the schemes going from NMF, to Finnish green/black/grey, to wrap round green/black. The atrition replacements from Canada would be operated in the overall green initially of course.

Note to self - This is also in the wrong thread - DOH!

upnorth · September 03, 2009, 10:09:23 PM

Quote from: Geoff on September 03, 2009, 01:09:28 PM
I was thinking of the Finns getting the F-104G family. With the schemes going from NMF, to Finnish green/black/grey, to wrap round green/black. The atrition replacements from Canada would be operated in the overall green initially of course.

Note to self - This is also in the wrong thread - DOH!

If you keep them around long enough, you could also take on surplus S model Starfighters from Italy, as Turkey did.

ChernayaAkula · September 04, 2009, 05:46:30 AM

Finnish Starfighter in the light greys of today's Finnish Hornets, armed with AMRAAMs and AIM-9Xs...

Geoff · September 04, 2009, 08:46:04 AM

Maybe the F-104G's get upgraded to "S" standard to act as point air defence. Full circle from the F-104C. But I suspect they would get MAP funded F-16's instead.

Geoff · September 04, 2009, 10:22:52 AM

OK this is one of the things I need advice on -
USAF Arctic markings. I know cammoed aircraft don't carry them. But would the uncammoed fighters like the F-86D, F-89, F-102s etc. carry the red/orange markings?
I know they can be exempted if it is deemed "...detremental to the safe accomplishment of the mission".
So is being based on the front line with the USSR a few mins flying time away "detremental". Any opinions please?

Radish · September 04, 2009, 10:39:08 AM

Alaska was in the Front Line and aircraft there carried Arctic markings, F86s, F-51Ds etc..

Geoff · September 04, 2009, 11:11:43 AM

Quote from: Radish on September 04, 2009, 10:39:08 AM
Alaska was in the Front Line and aircraft there carried Arctic markings, F86s, F-51Ds etc..

Thats what I was thinking.

nev · September 05, 2009, 01:15:05 AM

Yeah, definately go for it in the NMF era, even into the early 60s with th stylish light grey camo. I think once you get to SEA camo it would look a bit silly.

upnorth · September 05, 2009, 01:29:28 AM

Quote from: nev on September 05, 2009, 01:15:05 AM
Yeah, definately go for it in the NMF era, even into the early 60s with th stylish light grey camo. I think once you get to SEA camo it would look a bit silly.

Actually, given the harsher Nordic climate and corrosion concerns, would aluminum laquer finish or silver paint not be more appropriate than NMF in the pre Air Defence Grey days?

Geoff · September 05, 2009, 02:58:12 AM

Aircraft with cammo are exempted from the regs on Hi-viz markings in the Arctic, well in the 1990's they were anyway.

I am trying to work out how to make a model which follows the schemes they would use if based so far north. But I want to add a fin marking based on the Finnish flag similar to the F-102A's based in Holland and Bavaria. It's no problem with the cammoed aircraft like the F-4D's, but I am having trouble working out how to add it to a large red fin on a F-102A!

I agree Nev, a finish more like Hi-Speed Silver would make sense but I don't know if the USAF used this sort of finish, and interceptor a/c based in Alaska and Iceland ( F-102's and F-4E's ) were in the Lt Air Defence Grey in the 60's. But I have pics of WB-29's in the Arctic in NMF with the red Arctic markings from the late 1940's.