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Hypersonic Transport

Started by KJ_Lesnick, October 07, 2009, 10:59:02 AM

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KJ_Lesnick

#15
October 14, 2009, 11:48:40 AM
How does Liquid Methane fare in terms of NoX production over LH2?  Also how does LCH4 fare in NOx production over heavier hydrocarbons like regular Jet-A?

That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

kitnut617

#16
October 14, 2009, 12:08:12 PM
That's out of my realm Kendra, but the BSP book goes into a lot of designs for Mack 5-10 projects.  Some had the liquid gas to cool the airframe then the engine parts but there's an interesting diagram comparison in the book.  A design using LH would be almost twice as big as a design using kerosene for something that did the same job.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

KJ_Lesnick

#17
October 17, 2009, 07:29:25 AM
Okay as for aerodynamic shapes... 

I was wondering if a shape like this could be suitable for a hypersonic-airliner type design

That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

kitnut617

#18
October 17, 2009, 08:25:30 AM Last Edit: October 17, 2009, 08:48:45 AM by kitnut617
The design in the middle is more like the designs in the book.  One thing though, the book says things like keeping the electronics and payload (people that is) cool, wasn't really taken into account as all the designs were only in the 'paper' design stage.  I guess that would have been looked after if any of the projects came to being.

Most of the designs took into account that air could be pre-compressed before it went into the air intake, this was done by careful design of the underside of the nose and forward fuselage.  This had a byproduct --- called heat,  one of two sources of heat that had to be accounted for, the other being frictional heat.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

KJ_Lesnick

#19
October 18, 2009, 01:30:19 PM
Kitnut617,

QuoteThe design in the middle is more like the designs in the book.

Sort of.  However, I have seen a Northrop-Grumman design which kind of looks like a shield, like this...



Which doesn't look too much different (from an overhead view) as the designs I showed.


QuoteOne thing though, the book says things like keeping the electronics and payload (people that is) cool

If you have a sufficiently effective light-weight heat-shield most of the heat will be reflected away rather than absorbed.  The electronics and passengers should remain reasonably cool (room temp)

QuoteMost of the designs took into account that air could be pre-compressed before it went into the air intake, this was done by careful design of the underside of the nose and forward fuselage.

I'm aware of that, the idea was to avoid using an excessively long or complex inlet system and instead using the underbelly for that purpose instead.  Also the pressure increase from that could be used to prop the plane up in flight (i.e. compression lift)


KJ Lesnick
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

Mossie

#20
October 18, 2009, 03:24:11 PM
There are several more blended projects in the SP Space book.

I found this on the Concorde page on aerospaceweb which is along similar lines to the two blended designs you've posted Kendra.  I don't know where the design originates.

I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

KJ_Lesnick

#21
October 19, 2009, 01:25:46 PM
Mossie,

QuoteThere are several more blended projects in the SP Space book.

I didn't know there was a Secret Project's book simply on space designs.

QuoteI found this on the Concorde page on aerospaceweb which is along similar lines to the two blended designs you've posted Kendra.  I don't know where the design originates.

I believe that design comes from a Popular Science or a Popular Mechanics book.


KJ Lesnick
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

Mossie

#22
October 19, 2009, 02:54:18 PM
Yeah, Secret Projects: Military Space Technology.  Like the others, it's a good read & there are some paralells with the BSP Hypersonics book.  It focus on military projects as per the title, so there's not much on hypersonic airliners or civilian space planes, but you can make some comparisons.  The HOTOL/Skylon/Lapcat story gets a good few pages.

Amazon link here, clicky.

Thanks for identifying the hyperliner pic. :thumbsup:
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

KJ_Lesnick

#23
October 20, 2009, 11:04:40 AM
Mossie,

QuoteThanks for identifying the hyperliner pic. :thumbsup:

No problem.  I have a photographic memory and I have a great many Popular Science and Popular Mechanics magazines


BTW:  I just ordered the book on Amazon.


KJ Lesnick
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

Mossie

#24
October 20, 2009, 11:42:18 AM
Enjoy the book Kendra! :thumbsup:
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

KJ_Lesnick

#25
October 20, 2009, 06:47:51 PM
Okay, now the next question. 

I know a spatular shape works better than a wedge-shape.  How does a "shield" shape like that Northrop-Gruman proposal (just the basic shape) compare over a spatular nose (i.e. a spatular nose with the spatular section having a sweep angle of 0-degrees) or a wedge-shape?

If you don't have exact figures, guesstimates would do fine. 


KJ Lesnick
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

kitnut617

#26
October 21, 2009, 02:44:08 PM
Erm!  well !  ;D  although there's a lot of clever people here that can help with a lot of subjects Kendra, I don't think hypersonic engineering is one of them -----  :lol:

The books I have just by their nature, only gloss over most of the subject.  The in-&-outs of why something was decided over another isn't explained.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

KJ_Lesnick

#27
October 21, 2009, 04:27:01 PM
Kitnut617,

QuoteErm!  well !  ;D  although there's a lot of clever people here that can help with a lot of subjects Kendra, I don't think hypersonic engineering is one of them -----  :lol:

Yeah, I know it is an esoteric subject.  Still I figure an aviation related forum would probably be a place to ask.  I would have asked on Secret Projects, or A.net, but I'm not allowed to post on Secret Projects, and I'm no longer a member of A.net anymore.  So, I figure this would be a good place to start.

I have a few people on my Yahoo IM list who are pilots (at least one of which has an aerospace engineering degree) but none of them are online much obviously. 

QuoteThe books I have just by their nature, only gloss over most of the subject.  The in-&-outs of why something was decided over another isn't explained.

I do know some basics which are covered in two Aerospace Engineering books which I actually own.  However basics are still basics.  I suppose I can guesstimate...


KJ Lesnick

That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

KJ_Lesnick

#28
October 23, 2009, 02:22:07 PM
I'm looking at some drawings of the X-30.  Ones that have been declassified in the past 5 years or so that actually show a sharp nose.  Even though the nose is somewhat spatular, it was rounded a bit at the leading-edge.  Considering the X-30 was a design conceived with 1980's technology, it sounds like it would be adequate enough.

I'm drawing up a basic shape incorporating a spatular nose with a somewhat highly swept wing shape.  It is a very rough drawing and incorporates no area ruling.  Just very basic geometries.



I haven't figured out where to put the vertical stabs, but the two lines I drew on the rear wing section on the top view were locations I was thinking of 


KJ Lesnick
You know, this sounds so retarded, but I haven't used a pencil for drawing in years.  It's amazing how big an improvement it makes when you can actually erase your mistakes  :o



That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

SSgt Baloo

#29
October 23, 2009, 03:17:11 PM
I'm no rocket scientist, but I suspect that a spatular or rounded nose shape probably prevents the accumulation of too much heat in too small an area. Perhaps the aerodynamic advantages of a pointy front end are outweighed by thermodynamic issues as speed increases?
Not older than dirt but remembers when it was still under warranty.
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