The Geriatric Air Force - Slightly Used

[Bryan H.]

The F414 is an evolution of the F404.  According to wikipedia, "GE successfully pitched the F414 as a low risk derivative of the F404, rather than a riskier new engine. In fact, the F414 engine was originally envisioned as not using any new materials or processes (versus the F404), and was designed to fit in the same footprint as the F404." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414  The F404 is a great improvement over the J52 and the F414 would squeeze more performance out the F404 engine concept without a great deal of redesign.

Well I can't avoid it, so I'll add the SNECMA M53 engine to the list of powerplants.  BTW, the M53 has higher thrust than the PW1120 so I'm not sure Geriatria's adversaries gained anything.  The Mirage F.1's will get M53-P3's + the other upgrade goodies.

I'm not sure I want to add the G.91.  It has some very good qualities but it's extremely compact size can be a liability.  Without, rule #7 I'd do a major upgrade as a way of establishing an indigenous aerospace industry.

I noticed there are no rules for non-military launch vehicles or spacecraft.  "Rocket science" would be a good way of maintaining a local aerospace industry without violating the treaty.

& happy modeling, Bryan

[Bryan H.]

Republic of Geriatria Air Force – order of battle

Type:   Number:
A-4x/TA-4x Super Skyhawks   275/25
Super Mirage F.1E/F.1Bs   275/25
A-7x/TA-7x Super Corsair II's    45/5
F-4x/RF-4x Super Phantom 2000's   75/25
MB.326   50   
Cessna M172   50
S-3B/ES-3B Viking   20/5
SP-2x Super Neptune   25
DHC-5 Buffalo   25
OV-10x Super Bronco   25
CH-46   25
Sikorsky S.61   50
Alouette II   50

On order for next year...
A-10   50
F/A-14D Super Tomcat 21   75
and happy modeling, Bryan

[Logan Hartke]

The F414 is an evolution of the F404.  According to wikipedia, "GE successfully pitched the F414 as a low risk derivative of the F404, rather than a riskier new engine. In fact, the F414 engine was originally envisioned as not using any new materials or processes (versus the F404), and was designed to fit in the same footprint as the F404." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Electric_F414  The F404 is a great improvement over the J52 and the F414 would squeeze more performance out the F404 engine concept without a great deal of redesign.

You're being selective.  That's what it was to be, originally, but it evolved into pretty much a different engine, just as the PW1120 is no F100 anymore.

In the same Wikipedia article you quoted it later says:

The F414 uses the core of the F412 and its full-authority digital engine control (FADEC), alongside the low-pressure system from the YF120 engine developed for the Advanced Tactical Fighter competition. One of the major differences between the F404 and the F414 is the fan section. The fan of the F414 is larger than that of the F404, but smaller than the fan for the F412.

The inlet diameter of the F414 is significantly larger and the internal components are not interchangeable.  It was certainly based on the F404, but it is also a new engine.  The Gripen required a good deal of expensive redesign to switch from the modified F404 (RM27) that it had to the F414 in the NG.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=66123

Inlet diameter :
F404 : 27.7"
RM12 : 27.9"
F414 : 32"

I have used the inlet diameter numbers you gave me for the F404, RM12, & F414 on another board and have been asked for the source of those numbers, as the gent there has different ones.

I would like to have something better than "some bloke on another board" to give as my reference, could you tell me where you got them from?

He gives the inlet diameter for the F404 as 31".

I don't buy the 31" figure. To begin with, I took the F404 inlet diameter here. Although it's yet another F/A-18 fan site, the great amount of details gave me some confidence. Then, the official data from Volvo (F404-RM12 specs ; Notice the typo) tends to confirm the 27.7" figure because the slightly larger inlet (27.9" vs 27.7") would easily explain why the RM12 produces more thrust. Said otherwise, a F404 derivative such as the RM12 couldn't produce more thrust while having a significantly smaller (by 10% or so) inlet diameter.
Frontal thrust also gives another clue. A 31" F404 would be significantly below average, even in the late 70's.

I don't think you can swap those in and out lightly like different versions of the same engine.  It would take extensive redesign of the airframe, even if the engine is the same diameter.

Republic of Geriatria Air Force – order of battle

Type:   Number:
A-4x/TA-4x Super Skyhawks   275/25
Super Mirage F.1E/F.1Bs   275/25
A-7x/TA-7x Super Corsair II's    45/5
F-4x/RF-4x Super Phantom 2000's   75/25
MB.326   50   
Cessna M172   50
S-3B/ES-3B Viking   20/5
SP-2x Super Neptune   25
DHC-5 Buffalo   25
OV-10x Super Bronco   25
CH-46   25
Sikorsky S.61   50
Alouette II   50

On order for next year...
A-10   50
F/A-14D Super Tomcat 21   75
and happy modeling, Bryan

Next decade, you mean.  As said in the original post:

These dates would only roll forward every 10 years, so--for example--the F-14 would not be an option until 2020.

The only other issues that I have are with the Cessna 172s.  They are still in production.  I don't think HAL has actually built any new Alouette II airframes since the 1980s (as the Cheetah or Cheetal), even though they've rebuilt many, so I think that's an excellent choice.

Cheers,

Logan

[Bryan H.]

OK, F-14's I thought production ended in the late 80's but upon quick google they're a no go.  Since, I'm looking at them mostly as a strike fighter, I'll pick up F-111F's and I don't even have to wait for next year.  The Australians have done studies on some fairly extensive F-111 upgrades including GE F110 engines.  Australian proposals appear to show a good bit of growth in capability left in the F-111.  http://www.f-111.net/CarloKopp/F-111_Upgrade_Options_Pt_2.htm However, I'll drop the procurement down to 50 F-111F's vs. 75 Tomcats.

Exchange Cessna M152 for the M172.

Bryan

[gral_rj]

Is M60 (the tank) eligible?

Not sure, but I think so. Leopard 1 is available; last produced batch(Leopard 1A4, 1A5s were converted from earlier models) was in the 70's.

[blue520]

Really interesting concept, been mulling it over for 24 h.
Been mainly looking at the air side so far.
Like others I got (so far):
Viggen
A-4's - Up grade as a Kahu/Super Skyhawk hybrid.
A-7's  - Upgrade to A-7F (re-engine, lengthen).
F-4's - Up grade as a Turkish Terminator 2020/Super Phantom hybrid.
Transall C-160 Transport.
OV-10 - For FAC/CAS, but not sure of the last biuld date for the OV-10D?

Thought about the Kawasaki C-1 Transport in 2011, but the C-160 seems a lot better in many ways (load, range).

Would the Harrier I/AV-8A be ok or is it too close to the next generation Harrier II/AV-8B?  

Could you clarify "3. No combat aircraft with an empty weight greater than 50,000 kg", do transport and tankers count as combat? I can't seem to find a Tanker Conversion/ Passenger/ VIP transport that fits the rules. The is 707 over weight and don't think any one has done a tanker convert on the DC-9.


Have not looked that deeply at armour yet:
Leopard 1 - up graded to 1A5 or 1A6 or the Swedish Strv 103 (s-tank).  
I assume that the M113 APC is out, was thinking about the Swedish pbv 302 APC.

Edit: Tankers - The KC-135 is just under the 50,000 kg. So would a production KC-135 be inside the rules and 707 converts not?
     

[Logan Hartke]

OK, F-14's I thought production ended in the late 80's but upon quick google they're a no go.

It won't matter.  The age rules go by decade.  If it doesn't qualify in 2010, it won't qualify in 2019.  You have to wait until 2020 for the rollover with new equipment.  That's part of the challenge, by the end of the decade, your force will basically be a 50/30 rule.  Can you still make it work?

Thought about the Kawasaki C-1 Transport in 2011, but the C-160 seems a lot better in many ways (load, range).

Again, nothing new is available in 2011.  The "new" stuff doesn't become an option until 2020.

Would the Harrier I/AV-8A be ok or is it too close to the next generation Harrier II/AV-8B?   

I don't know.  I'd put it up to the mob.  I'd be fine with it as long as you don't try to do the upgrades to bring it up to that level (new radar, etc).

Could you clarify "3. No combat aircraft with an empty weight greater than 50,000 kg", do transport and tankers count as combat?

I can't seem to find a Tanker Conversion/   Passenger/VIP transport that fits the rules. The is 707 over weight and do not think any one has done a tanker convert on the DC-9.

No, they don't qualify unless you try to pull a Harvest Hawk.  The 707 is fine.

Have not looked that deeply at armour yet:
Leopard 1 - up graded to 1A5 or 1A6 or the Swedish Strv 103 (s-tank). 
I assume that the M113 APC is out, was thinking about the Swedish pbv 302 APC.

Yeah, I'd forgotten about the Strv 103.  Good one.  Yes, the M113 is out.  They're still building the thing in Pakistan and Turkey, I know.

Cheers,

Logan

[blue520]

Thanks for the answers.  
Seeing they are transports can I squeeze in a couple of Short Belfast's? (think I might be pushing it)

My list + updates.

Think a Navy would be a good idea, need a flagship and an aircraft carrier would be useful.
Seeing it is just coming out of an upgrade, Clemenceau class aircraft carrier Sao Paulo (ex Foch) would do nicely.

Naval Air (most land based):
A-4's -  Kahu/Super Skyhawk Upgrade.

A-7's  - A-7F  Upgrade.

S-2 Tracker - Upgrade, Garrett TPE331 turboprop conversion. Some Airborne early warning and control conversion (Brazil), a couple as tanker conversion (Brazil), and a number with upgraded ASW (Taiwan).

C-1 Trader Transport. Seeing the commonality between the S-2 and the C-1, could the turboprop conversion be feasible?

P-3 Orion (Rule 2)

(P-3 alternative) Ilyushin Il-38 "May" - upgraded to Indian Il-38 SD level

Army Air:
Harrier GR.3

OV-10 - upgraded to OV-10D level

General Air:
707 - Tanker Conversion, Passenger/ VIP Transport. Is AWACS conversion allowed or is it starting to push the limit?

C-160 Transport

Viggen - Air defence, Interception, Recc.

F-4's - (Terminator 2020/Super Phantom upgrade) Strike, Interception, General multi-roll.

Armour:
Tanks: Swedish Strv 103 + Leopard 1 - (1A5 or 1A6)  

APC: Swedish pbv 302

Self-propelled artillery: 25 Swedish bkan 1 - upgraded to 1 C standard

Self-propelled anti-aircraft gun: Flakpanzer Gepard - Anti aircraft system on a Leopard 1 hull, German radar installation.

Think that is all for the time being, bound to be more later.  

[Logan Hartke]

Thanks for the answers. 
Seeing they are transports can I squeeze in a couple of Short Belfast's? (think I might be pushing it)

...

C-1 Trader Transport. Seeing the commonality between the S-2 and the C-1, could the turboprop conversion be feasible?

P-3 Orion

No problem, I'm glad to see so many people interested.  I think the turboprop configuration is fine for the Trader.  The Trader, Tracker, and Tracer are all the same airframe.

When was the last Pakistani P-3 airframe actually constructed (from the first, originally embargoed batch)?

Cheers,

Logan

[blue520]

Can not answer the question about the Pakistani P-3's. But while looking around I found reference to the South Koreans ordering P-3's in late 1990 and not receiving them until 1995, also it seems Kawasaki was building versions for JMSDF until 1996 (perhaps 1997).

So it seems the P-3 is out of the picture. I will edit my post above, and now have to hunt for a replacement.     

[gral_rj]

Preliminary thoughts. Will get back later with more.

Fighter aircraft: The Mirage F-1 is a good option, but I feel there's a better one: MiG-23MLDs(Russian ones, with the aerodynamic improvements the export MiG-23MLDs did not have). Get those improved to the MiG-23-98-1 standard(http://milparade.udm.ru/27/104.htm). I thought about doing the proposed AL-31F re-engine, but surprisingly, the R-35 that equips the MiG-23MLD beats the AL-31 in thrust, at not much increased fuel consumption, so it stays for now. For light fighters, MiG-21s upgraded to the MiG-21-97 standard(MiG-21-93 with replacement of the R-25 engine with a Klimov RD-33).

Attack aircraft: A-7, brought to the A-7F standard. This will give me a logistical problem, because I'm not sure integrating the AA-11 Archer with the A-7 would be allowed, forcing me to use the AIM-9. I may scrap this and move to MiG-23BNs, upgraded to MiG-23B-98 standard, but I don't want to - the A-7F is much better, IMO.

Transport aircraft: Like many, I choose the C-160. Tanker/large VIP aircraft is the DC-10(last one built in 1989). Will think more on this.

Patrol aircraft: Is the Breguet Atlantic allowed? The Atlantic 1 was last built in the 70's, but the Atlantic 2 was built from 1989 on. If allowed, I buy Atlantic 1s and bring them to Atlantic 2 standard.

Navy: I'll have to know more about the geography to answer this.

Armoured vehicles: Leopard 1s for tanks(1A6 standard), Marder 1s for IFVs(1A3 standard). Haven't thought of anything else yet. May buy more German vehicles, and I still have to think of what I'll have for artillery(BTW, I'm limited to older armoured vehicles - what about towed artillery? Can I buy them new?).   

[Logan Hartke]

Transport aircraft: Like many, I choose the C-160. Tanker/large VIP aircraft is the DC-10(last one built in 1989). Will think more on this.

Patrol aircraft: Is the Breguet Atlantic allowed? The Atlantic 1 was last built in the 70's, but the Atlantic 2 was built from 1989 on. If allowed, I buy Atlantic 1s and bring them to Atlantic 2 standard.

The DC-10 was still produced later as the MD-11.  Regardless, the aircraft first flew in 1970, so it's disqualified.

The Atlantic is not allowed, as the Atlantic 1 and 2 are the same basic airframe.

I honestly think that blue520 has the best MPA option.  I think the Nimrod is good, but I think the Il-38 May is the best option.  I also agree that the Il-38SD is a great one, too, even with the option of BrahMos.  Dangerous to EVERYTHING.  I've REALLY been waiting the ENTIRE time for someone to think of it.  It's the best MPA option, I think.

For geography, think of Turkey.  Something like that.

I think the MiG-23 is a good option.  It has some GREAT upgrades, too.  It's the swing-wing maintenance issues that worry me, but that's it.  Also, the Indian Air Force crashes with single-engined MiGs worries me a little bit too, but not that much.

Good thoughts, though.

Cheers,

Logan

[Just call me Ray]

Well, this is what I would do.


If there was to be an Eastern Bloc-tilt, well, MiG-21s and -23s are very plentiful, a lot of upgrade programs exist and large fleets can be bought up for next to nothing. For a nation like this they should be adequate for nearly all tactical needs. Be-12s would be bought as a maritime patrol aircraft as Wikipedia seems to indicate Russia still has useful stocks of these. Mi-4s/Z-5s would probably be the default utility helicopter.

If it were to buy mostly Western equipment, this is what I would do:

- A-7 - Greece and Thailand still use A-7s in limited numbers and will soon be retired. Greece's A-7s are the most developed, so I would upgrade frames from both countries to this common standard. Includes trainer aircraft too.

- A-4S - Wikipedia seems to indicate that as many as 150 frames may be available and just recently retired from Singapore. These have F404 engines to boot. 48 A-4s are in storage in Malaysia, and of course there's the Boneyard.

- Mirage - this presents a lot of options. The Cheetah Cs, the most advanced version, seem to be in storage and available for sale. Brazil and Switzerland also has some fairly advanced Mirages that were recently retired and put in storage. Pakistan has the currently largest fleet of Mirage 3/5 fighters and many are probably to be retired with the introduction of the JH-17. Egypt, anther potential JH-17 customer, apparently has a sizable Mirage fleet too.

- F-5 - Switzerland's are reaching the end of their fatigue lives, if I'm not mistaken, but a lot of South American and some Asian countries still operate them

- Transports - I guess the Transall is it. Also, I assume civilian airlines would be exempt from treaty restrictions so you can have a CRAF fleet.

- Helicopters - Hmmm. Would UH-1s count? Otherwise, uh, I guess SeaKings or Choctaws.

Also, I notice that there's some what of a loophole here, so I'd like to suppliment my forces with...well, I hear Russia's having a firesale on some of these things

[gral_rj]

The DC-10 was still produced later as the MD-11.  Regardless, the aircraft first flew in 1970, so it's disqualified.

The Atlantic is not allowed, as the Atlantic 1 and 2 are the same basic airframe.

I honestly think that blue520 has the best MPA option.  I think the Nimrod is good, but I think the Il-38 May is the best option.  I also agree that the Il-38SD is a great one, too, even with the option of BrahMos.  Dangerous to EVERYTHING.  I've REALLY been waiting the ENTIRE time for someone to think of it.  It's the best MPA option, I think.

For geography, think of Turkey.  Something like that.

Il-38s were plan B. Guess they're it then. If DC-10s aren't available, we go for the DC-8(the enlarged ones, with CFM-56s - DC-8-63, IIRC). For helicopters... don't know what to use instead of the UH-1, still looking for that. I do intend to use the S-61(the SH-3 as a naval helicopter, the CH-3/HH-3 as a transport one), and SA 342 Gazelles for scouting.

Something like Turkey... this means I can have units bigger than corvettes. First thing that comes to mind are Leanders and Counties, the latter being converted to lose the Sea Slug and get a big helicopter deck and hangar, like the Chileans did. If I have money to spend, one or two early Sprucans might be a good option, they're rather expensive to keep though.

Still thinking what to do with the army. May get CAESAR or similar for artillery(after all, they aren't armoured), but I'd rather have a real SPH.

[Mossie]

Would the Harrier I/AV-8A be ok or is it too close to the next generation Harrier II/AV-8B?   

I don't know.  I'd put it up to the mob.  I'd be fine with it as long as you don't try to do the upgrades to bring it up to that level (new radar, etc).

There were new build Sea Harriers in the 90's which I guess pretty much kills Harrier I?

I thought that strategic assets would be mostly out due to the 50,000lb limit, but there's a few that get in.  I know some have been mentioned, Tu-22, Vulcan, etc, but there others such as the Victor & Valiant, FB-111.  Mirage IV is a definate...